When should Foster go?
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@Bones said in When should Foster go?:
@Crazy-Horse said in When should Foster go?:
Interesting concept that it is ok for some players to make the same mistakes as others simply because they are better players. Not sure I agree with that, but I do get where you are coming from.
It's not simply because they're better players though. It's because they'll do their job and do what's needed to get their team on top. RM had done SFA until then, that was a perfect moment to step up, do the basics and start to get his team looking like winners. And he can't even butter his bread, what he should be able to do with his eyes closed. It's not just a missed touch, I can't imagine that not having an effect on others in the team too.
Yeah problems are definitely bigger than that but when your guy who's supposed to be the master planner is so unreliable, you probably should start there.
Not defending RM for the miss because it was inexcusable. I do wonder how Carter would actually go in this team and with trying to combat the rush defence. It wasn't really anything he had to deal with. And he had pretty good forward pack in front of him.
Neither RM nor BB are bad players. They are not being given the platform to perform. Are there any 10s out there looking like world beaters, especially ones operating behind a disappointing pack?
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@Crazy-Horse think the difference is DC was able to adapt and react a bit quicker than most mortals
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@Victor-Meldrew you’re too generous. He’s been there long enough to say something unless he was just a puppet.
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@Crazy-Horse Agreed. It starts in the forwards and we’re not winning that battle and we know that has been our problem for several years. We are also unsettled in our centers which doesn’t help. Would like a bigger 2nd five outside BB or RM because both of them are slight. Where is the next Nonu?
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Dylan Cleaver puts it well this morning. To justify appointing Foster, the entire NZR regime had to drink the Kool Aid - with disastrous effect.
What message does it send if you look outside this well-thumbed Book of Lore for your next leader? Does it mean it was all a bit of a crock? It's an awkward message at the very least. This mythology becomes problematic on another level, too, because the very people who cannot afford to believe it start to: the players. The simple truth is that the majority of these All Blacks are not as good as the ones who went immediately before them, but they have been fooled into thinking that winning the "jersey" is the endgame and that everything that follows from there is pre-ordained. As a learned friend wrote to me on Sunday morning: "These All Blacks go out expecting to win. That is not their fault; that is the fault of management and the leadership of the organisation. This is what happens when your world order has been taught, not earned." -
part of the problem was Rennie didnt apply, Joseph didnt apply, Schmidt didnt apply, Gatland couldnt apply, leaving a 2 horse race with 2 men with zero head coaching experience at International level, but one had been part of a successful (the numbers back this up, even if the on field stuff left alot to be desired) International coaching team...
Not saying I agreed with it, but when you look at it, NZR were down to a coin toss...right now, looks like they went heads when they shoulda gone tails!
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@taniwharugby Maybe they should have started the process earlier when Rennie was available. But I assume a lot of these guys saw the writing on the wall and the NZRU tendency to stick with status quo. It’s a bit of an old boys network. Maybe next time they can have an anonymous survey of players who could discuss the merits of potential coaches.
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@broughie possibly, although it isnt like it was a secret Hansen was leaving either and the job would be up post RWC.
I guess for Rennie, he knew he wouldnt be the only candidate from outside the cool kids club, so maybe he had looked at who he might be up against, plus the history of internal succession, and though safe option was to take the Aus job on offer instead of waiting for the AB job to come up, that he mightnt get (similarly Joseph, Schmidt was always an outside shot given he had said he wasnt applying)
Wasnt it also only 6 months earlier Robertson had said he wasnt sure he was ready for it (or was that 2018?)
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@broughie said in When should Foster go?:
@Victor-Meldrew you’re too generous. He’s been there long enough to say something unless he was just a puppet.
Not sure that changing the puppet is going to make the puppet show any more successful. The problems run deep and have done for some time and aren't going to be fixed in a few games. (That's not an endorsement of Foster BTW)
If we sack Foster and replace him after only 5 games, are we going to set a win/lose target for his replacement and sack them after 5 games as well if they don't meet it?
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@Victor-Meldrew no I don’t think so. First I think we all knew that Foster was not up for the job. Second I think we would give any new fella more grace because he has not been part of the system for the past 8 years plus.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in When should Foster go?:
If we sack Foster and replace him after only 5 games, are we going to set a win/lose target for his replacement and sack them after 5 games as well if they don't meet it?
I think he shoudl go, but the losses are a symptom, not a cause.
The concerns before he took over were around selections, game plan and cohesiveness of the unit. 5 games in, it's pretty clear to me that there haven't been steps forward (and in fact usually backwards). Argentina is just the culmination - there's an argument that even if we scrape a miracle win, the problems Foster brings to the table aren't solved and he should step down.
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@Bones said in When should Foster go?:
@Crucial said in When should Foster go?:
I do wonder if you have ever kicked a rugby ball.
Bro, what the fuck? What would anyone here having kicked a ball have to do with Mounga consistently fucking them up? You think he's kicking a different ball than anyone else getting paid plenty of money to do so? Because we can quite easily compare.
The kick Mounga missed was about 45 out and 10-15 in from touch wasn't it? I don't think you can get a better position to be kicking it from even if you're a social club player, let alone a highly paid professional.
Knew someone was going to bring up Carter too. That's like saying it's ok for SB to give away the odd penalty because Retallick does too. At least Carter would still have the capacity to steer the team around, make tackles and score plenty of points if he made a mistake and not shrink back from it.
Yeah. I'll put my hand up for making stupid comments in the heat of the moment.
I was frustrated that a point I thought I had made clearly kept being misunderstood with a focus on 'how easy' a pro footballer should find a kick like that.I'll see if I can make my point even clearer.
It is up to coaching staff to provide players with the plans to win and to advise on best options to take in certain game positions.
It is also up to coaches to work with the game runner (10) to have options available if Plan A isn't working. Chip kick and hope is only an option when under advantage.
I don't think this coaching team have done that, or at least haven't drilled it into the players, as evidenced by the other night.
That is a coaching failure to address a problem that the team have had for a long time. A problem where hard lessons have been learned already.
At an individual level our players are not making good decisions. The RM example was to explain that at a critical point in time he took an option with a higher element of risk than was appropriate for the situation. If he does that he HAS to execute well.
Did he have any other risk/reward options available via the coaches though? Was a 5m drive the only thing they had? Had the coaches provided an attacking option with a lower risk setup? eg a 10 metre lineout with a set piece move?Apologies again for diverting the conversation away from the point at hand.
@Rancid-Schnitzel - sorry, no condescension intended. -
More muppet than puppet.
Maybe I'm being too harsh, he seems like a good bloke but it doesn't look good from a performance point of view and most of us knew it. So how long do you leave it?
A draw, two losses, two wins is bloody awful for the ABs. One win was when the Wobblies did this:
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@taniwharugby I thought Rennie, at least, did apply. He was just far more progressed with RA/Raelene who had been grooming him for a while.
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@aucklandwarlord said in When should Foster go?:
@Donsteppa - remember when the Mafia had Ian "Ferret" Foster at the top of our "know your enemy" list - circa 2004, for continual disservice to BOP players during chiefs selection?
We were well ahead of our time...
we fucking knew. we fucking told everyone. we have not gone away.
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@broughie said in When should Foster go?:
@taniwharugby Maybe they should have started the process earlier when Rennie was available. But I assume a lot of these guys saw the writing on the wall and the NZRU tendency to stick with status quo. It’s a bit of an old boys network. Maybe next time they can have an anonymous survey of players who could discuss the merits of potential coaches.
I agree, they had plenty of time and should have started the process a lot earlier if this was to be an truly open position. You could argue and many of us did, that it was left so late it was almost just a organizational validity check to ensure the process was compliant as they had already pre selected their candidate. Razor was just part of the process and probably gave them an out ( and probably even had a better presentation (Im sure the cantabs have seen it at the pub), but not an option they were not willing to take. I can see how the success and emphasis was put on the previous era could have swayed them into thinking keep status quo, but not openly looking for who is the best coach was always going to be a risk.
Still we have him now, he has a chance to learn from what has happened and should be given every chance to do so (although it reminds me the confused 2000's Chiefs) and he has to come up with an action plan on how to fix it, unlike the Chiefs the NZ public wont tolerate failure for long.
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@taniwharugby said in When should Foster go?:
part of the problem was Rennie didnt apply, Joseph didnt apply, Schmidt didnt apply, Gatland couldnt apply, leaving a 2 horse race with 2 men with zero head coaching experience at International level, but one had been part of a successful (the numbers back this up, even if the on field stuff left alot to be desired) International coaching team...
Not saying I agreed with it, but when you look at it, NZR were down to a coin toss...right now, looks like they went heads when they shoulda gone tails!
i think leaving it up to people to apply was the first wrong step
you advertise a job when you dont know who is out there and what they can do...we're they hoping there was an international coach out there they didn't know about?
cant exactly have a better job interview than looking at what all the coaches out there are currently doing...so pick one you want based on that and go after them, woo them
In reality there are probably only half a dozen guys they would even consider...all well known, was this the kiwi arrogance people talk about?..."no...they must come to us if they want the job...we're the All Backs"
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I don't know, but am convinced that, the reason the process started so late was, the NZRU thought they would win the World Cup, and therefore the succession planning was seamless, and would go over without any public disagreement.
Of course, this thinking ignored the two years of rugby that came before it, but hey, organisations used to success have blindspots.
the inevitable happens, we get bundled out, and suddenly the process is a thing that has to happen. the problem is, it is too late. the best candidates are already in other jobs. And the picture is painted that the process is a box-ticking exercise.
And so you get what we had here last week. Which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it
I don't like it, any more than you do
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@bayimports agree up to the last paragraph :-).
