Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November
-
@akan004 said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that only Cane and Whitelock would currently be selected in a combined AB/Bok pack. Whitelock may not even make it tbh.
That unfortunately is the reality of where our forwards are atm. We simply aren't world class up front anymore.Who would you take Cane over in the Bok pack?
-
@PecoTrain based on week in week out performance I'd take him over Kolisi (and definitely over any bench option we have atm).
I am huge fan of Kolisi, but between injuries and the role he plays for SA, we don't see his best play often enough.
As a captain though, I am more than happy to Kolisi on and off the pitch.
-
I actually think Sotutu and Akira could be world-class forwards given the opportunity. Savea and Cane are in consideration at 7.
Coles is a very handy hooker when he controls himself. Moody is decent. I kind of feel Laulala is not quite where he was or could have been, Ofa is a ticket in waiting.
At lock yes we aren't in a golden era. Perhaps we relied on BBR too much over the years and Whitelock has been run into the ground. Patty T has to be managed like a thoroughbred (even if he doesn't look or play like one).
But we have kept our powder dry! There are some explosive hardworking 6s back in NZ. And one hybrid 6/7 who would have offered something a little different. -
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I would love to hear what BB really thinks of Foster and what has happened the last few years. I have a sneaking suspicion behind closed doors he thinks foster is a fluffybunny. This no doubt creeps into the culture of players etc and may help explain why he has just been off for some time.
Huh? He's only ever played with Foster as a coach hasn't he?
-
Wow this is one of those tough games to explain. Argies were just better , they defended better, won more turnovers, were more physical, more prepared and just got under our skin. You can quiblle about selections but this team was good enough and experienced enough to do better. I am not really sure that any changes would have led to us winning the game, there were mental errors leading to key moments right across the park. Forwards were out muscled and the backs failed to string anything together. The lack of execution and preparation has to be at Foster's feet but we got subpar performance from many numbers on the field. I don't think there can be too many changes for the next game, 2 or 3 at max. It feels like in 5 games we built up slowly, hit a peak and have then fallen off a cliff. In hindsight, perhaps we needed to keep building last week with minimal changes.
-
@akan004 said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Chris said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Kirwan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
People were complaining about mythical Bok and England concerns, but this was what we were worried about. A physical side making few mistakes.
Yes mate exactly what I was talking about that got slammed by a few people on here
No progression more losses coming m.I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that only Cane and Whitelock would currently be selected in a combined AB/Bok pack. Whitelock may not even make it tbh.
That unfortunately is the reality of where our forwards are atm. We simply aren't world class up front anymore.Not sure how to make that comparison, almost the same forwards-Read beat the Boks last time out and Barrett had a great game and is probably our 4th best lock right now. That said we were collectively crap today but I would have to believe after watching the Boks tial they are hardly at their peak either.
-
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Siam said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Fuck this I'm getting drunk...where were you when the All Blacks looked like Southland...?
Listening to my wife snore on my shoulder after she fell asleep when we went behind.
Holy phrasing batman.
-
@SidBarret said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@PecoTrain based on week in week out performance I'd take him over Kolisi (and definitely over any bench option we have atm).
I am huge fan of Kolisi, but between injuries and the role he plays for SA, we don't see his best play often enough.
As a captain though, I am more than happy to Kolisi on and off the pitch.
It’s a bit of an unfair comparison though, because the balance and style of play of the AB and Bok backrows are very different. Kolisi for example might be more an 8 if he was a Kiwi
-
Oof. Where to start.
I guess on the referee and the travel, they were clearly to blame.
Nah, don't think Gardner had any effect on the result, but fuck me open both eyes if you're gonna be pedantic! Coles slap gets a penalty, Argies not penalised for it once, despite doing it plenty. Jordies "no arms tackle"..wtf? And then to rub it in, we see ALB absolutely creamed in a tackle off the ball, which was high and he claims "they ran into each other". C u n t.
On to the next absolute c u n t. Just such a fluffybunny move to one week say you can't take the halfback off despite him having an absolutely godawful game, then the next week you sub early on our best ever halfback. C u n t.
What the fuck was that ball in hand? Epitomised by having a lineout hot on attack in the last ten and desperately needing to score...what did we do? Hiff it to our 10 to run it straight up. Pretty sure that was thought up by the same guy who thought of the Dagg move in Lions 3. Constantly firing panic kicks and chips for no reason, fairly shortly after 3 phases of hit it straight up in channel 1 or 2 and a 4th phase of two passes to a guy who will stop, goosie and try to swerve around the outside and break any momentum for those outside. And the fucken kick chase! Why are we the only fucken team in the world that can't apply pressure on kicks?
Have to question what's going on behind closed doors. When you have so many players making absolutely crucial clangers in so many games and guys like Perenara, Taylor, Goodhue falling off a cliff (and to a lesser extent BB). And then the discipline, Jesus fuck.
Yeah good one Richie, just kick it dead by a country mile mate. Codie probably would've just loped along and got in your way anyway, I think he's had his brain removed and so is constantly lost.
More to come I'm sure.
-
@gt12 said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
This might make me feel better,
but it doesn't. One sentence jumps out, "this loss is going to hurt".
How about the fucking loss last week you fucking bunch of social media abusing toolboxes?
How about “the preparation was good”.
-
@DMX
We are going off topic.That's kinda what I meant when I said we don't see his best because of the way Kolisi is used with the Springbok. They try and and use him in the Read role, but at his best he plays like a smaller faster Kaino.
Problem with Kolisi is that, unless he is good form, he doesn't have the volume of work and that is where Cane beats him most days.
When in form though and playing in middle of the park he does things that Cane can't and Vermeulen is miles better than Cane in the same role.
-
I've overslept kickoff, so only saw 2nd half.
It was shit. Argentina were pretty good.
It reminded me of the 2019 RWC semi, where I felt from early on that the ABs don't really seem to stand a chance but usually they still somehow squeeze out a win through one or two really late, incredible end-of-field-tries. Not anymore. It's tough when you've gotten used to this incredible period of dominance from the ABs from 2010 until about 2017 (in retrospect, the BIL tour seemed to me as the turning point, never would I ever have guessed that the ABs wouldn't comprehensively win the series). Anyways, maybe this shit the ABs served up for the last two games makes you appreciate them playing well a bit more, as you can no longer file that under "as expected"
-
@SidBarret said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@DMX
We are going off topic.That's kinda what I meant when I said we don't see his best because of the way Kolisi is used with the Springbok. They try and and use him in the Read role, but at his best he plays like a smaller faster Kaino.
Problem with Kolisi is that, unless he is good form, he doesn't have the volume of work and that is where Cane beats him most days.
When in form though and playing in middle of the park he does things that Cane can't and Vermeulen is miles better than Cane in the same role.
I like Kolisi , but just think the who would make a Boks XV topic does not make much sesnse. Kolisi/Steph Dutoit/ Vermulen are very effective even though kolisi gets pulled pretty early. The last two times we played them there honestly was not much between our packs, I probably would give the ABs the edge and it was not because of Cane. Read was probably the weak link. Now I don't know why but we seem to have many of our same players underperforming but I don't know that you can assume Boks would not also underperform if they had come over as well.
-
@DMX you're right, the topic is Arg V nz, so comparing SA to NZ is pretty irrelavent. But asking how far some NZ players are from the pointy end of player available globally is kinda relevant.
I am not sure about the balance of the NZ backrow. Is Savea the right guy for the loose loose forward role? Are NZ getting enough out of their frontrow in the loose to justify the risks in tight? What happened to Paddy's form from SRA?
-
Thoughts from a rewatch of first 50. In some ways not a bad as I thought, in others much worse. Based on first 50 don't think it is fair to blame Foster for everything.
Anyhow:
-
ABs actually did quite a lot well, without doing anything extraordinary.
-
Trouble is it seems there was a 5 minute outbreak of brain fade amongst ABs which, by giving away stupid penalties, relieved pressure on Pumas and in some cases also led to points.
Cole slap penalty reversal 24
Jordie no arms 25
Frizell illegal cleanout 28
Savea comes round ruck thinking ball out 29WTF!!!!
-
The last of these nearly conceded a try, and then when Puma TH dropped left shoulder and bored in Moody penalised for dropping bind, which, given he was by then pushing on TH hip, was ludicrous. 3 points.
-
Even then there was some light (albeit what seemed minutes lost for kick/kick off/another scrum (this time where Puma TH penalised for same thing)) and then Mo'unga overdoes kick to touch. Another scrum and half time at 16-3. It could/should have been 13-3/16-8.
Then in first 10 of second:
-
AB backline runs move for what looks like first time ever and Jordie knocks on.
-
Things led to another scrum in front of Puma sticks and Puma LH drags down on Lomax's jersey and he eventually goes to ground. Gardner penalises ABs, when it should have been other way around.
-
To make matters worse, from lineout Puma maul draws penalty, then another stupid one from Goodhue, and hey presto it's 19-3 instead of 16-6. Huge difference at that stage.
-
Last act of 50, ABs lose lineout on own throw.
-
AB players need to take ownership for stupid acts of self sabotage, which made Pumas look considerably better than they probably were. That said, they could only play what was in front of them, which was a bit of a rabble.
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
More's the pity, because I think if ABs had focussed on maintaining the pressure the signs are the points would have come.
-
-
@Bones said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I would love to hear what BB really thinks of Foster and what has happened the last few years. I have a sneaking suspicion behind closed doors he thinks foster is a fluffybunny. This no doubt creeps into the culture of players etc and may help explain why he has just been off for some time.
Huh? He's only ever played with Foster as a coach hasn't he?
I think he has a lot of experience under a lot of different coaches so would be well placed to be an accurate judge of Foster's skills. The senior players would all have an opinion on what went wrong. Surely many of them can see the issues we are seeing.
