Who is to blame?
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@Nepia said in Who is to blame?:
@akan004 said in Who is to blame?:
@dogmeat said in Who is to blame?:
Ref for totally losing control of the game. Not simply the cards but for allowing the niggle and handing out penalties like a Real Estate Agent at a business lunch. Completely stopped the flow of the game and allowed it to devolve into a shit fight.
AB leadership for not reacting to the ref and changing team / tactics.
Cane for not taking the three just before half time
Barrett for being a big dumb bastard
Foster for poor selections and lack of tactical nous
Have to disagree with this. We had them under pressure and have shown throughout the series that we have an effective maul which they had problems defending so I can understand what Cane was thinking. Ultimately it came down to TJP taking the wrong option twice, if he didn't it would have been almost a certain 5 pointer on both occasions.
At the last we should have taken the three on the last penalty we got at halftime, we'd already tried twice and not been able to get over the line.
They were down to 13 at that point and our mauls failed only because the Aussies drove early on both occasions. Pretty lucky not to get a yellow for that imo. This wouldn't be a discussion point if TJP didn't fuck up though, we would be praising Cane for going for the try.
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@NTA said in Who is to blame?:
@mariner4life said in Who is to blame?:
Okay I've just watched skinny Ioane carry on after a try, and he's heading for the top of the list.
And he did his stupid put-down again. Did he have a bad experience actually touching the ground as a kid?
If he bombs another try because he drops it in this fashion, does he get dropped for good?
His carry on was enough to make even Jeff Wilson blush.
Cullen just gave a bit of a wink after beating seven Scots defenders back in 96.
But I guess it was only Scotland
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@Bones said in Who is to blame?:
@number9 said in Who is to blame?:
Same day travel to and from the ground does not help preparations. It is a question of mindset and regular patterns.Yeah Australia were much better prepared as a result of travelling to the ground on the same day...oh wait.
The red not taking control ffucked everything up, red and yellows sucked
Yeah Australia were much less fucked up as a result of having a different ref...oh wait. The ref was fine, quit whining.
In terms of cards we came out better off. Reece committed an obvious professional foul on our 22 in the first half, just flopping on the ball and hanging onto it to stop them clearing. Similar to Koroibete but probably worse and got away with just a penalty.
I said before I'm not a fan of the card happy refs but it didn't end up benefiting Aus.
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@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
In terms of cards we came out better off. Reece committed an obvious professional foul on our 22 in the first half, just flopping on the ball and hanging onto it to stop them clearing. Similar to Koroibete but probably worse and got away with just a penalty.
I said before I'm not a fan of the card happy refs but it didn't end up benefiting Aus.
The red card situation definitely favoured Australia. They only lost Swinton but the ABs lost Ofa and Akira. The consequence of that was that Lomax played much more minutes than he was expected to, and faded in the 2nd half, and it removed one of the better performing players through no fault of his own. Losing a front rower to a red card early in a game is always a double whammy.
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Overall I think we are still very vulnerable and we don't react particularly well when things aren't going our way. I think teams will back themselves to play basic, aggressive rugby and wait for us to start making mistakes as we push more and more risky plays to try and break the game open. We don't have a really clear gameplan and we are very reliant on people like Beauden to pull some magic out of their ass, and when it doesn't work they start making mistakes that are costly.
So I blame Foster and those that decided we should go with 'continuity' when that meant continuing on with the weaknesses that got exposed at the RWC.
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@Bovidae said in Who is to blame?:
@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
In terms of cards we came out better off. Reece committed an obvious professional foul on our 22 in the first half, just flopping on the ball and hanging onto it to stop them clearing. Similar to Koroibete but probably worse and got away with just a penalty.
I said before I'm not a fan of the card happy refs but it didn't end up benefiting Aus.
The red card situation definitely favoured Australia. They only lost Swinton but the ABs lost Ofa and Akira. The consequence of that was that Lomax played much more minutes than he was expected to, and faded in the 2nd half, and it removed one of the better performing players through no fault of his own. Losing a front rower to a red card early in a game is always a double whammy.
That's a fair point. Though we didn't have to lose Akira. We just went with the cookie cutter "sub off your 6 if you lose a front rower" despite Akira being one of our most effective players on the park.
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@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
@Bovidae said in Who is to blame?:
@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
In terms of cards we came out better off. Reece committed an obvious professional foul on our 22 in the first half, just flopping on the ball and hanging onto it to stop them clearing. Similar to Koroibete but probably worse and got away with just a penalty.
I said before I'm not a fan of the card happy refs but it didn't end up benefiting Aus.
The red card situation definitely favoured Australia. They only lost Swinton but the ABs lost Ofa and Akira. The consequence of that was that Lomax played much more minutes than he was expected to, and faded in the 2nd half, and it removed one of the better performing players through no fault of his own. Losing a front rower to a red card early in a game is always a double whammy.
That's a fair point. Though we didn't have to lose Akira. We just went with the cookie cutter "sub off your 6 if you lose a front rower" despite Akira being one of our most effective players on the park.
Couldn't they just swap the prop in for scrums? Or is that only in the case of injuries?
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@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
Overall I think we are still very vulnerable and we don't react particularly well when things aren't going our way. I think teams will back themselves to play basic, aggressive rugby and wait for us to start making mistakes
That is hard to do well for 80 minutes though. Accurate rush defences are bloody hard to break down, but hard to get right. I hope someone will find a way of unlocking them, and it'll be attack happy again, with good rugby being rewarded.
I still think it's Lions 1 - slashing diagonal runs near the base of the breakdown that'll get them. Have supporters, just make the defence go up and back, upd and back
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@nzzp said in Who is to blame?:
@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
Overall I think we are still very vulnerable and we don't react particularly well when things aren't going our way. I think teams will back themselves to play basic, aggressive rugby and wait for us to start making mistakes
That is hard to do well for 80 minutes though. Accurate rush defences are bloody hard to break down, but hard to get right. I hope someone will find a way of unlocking them, and it'll be attack happy again, with good rugby being rewarded.
I still think it's Lions 1 - slashing diagonal runs near the base of the breakdown that'll get them. Have supporters, just make the defence go up and back, upd and back
You allude to it already, but a rush defense is only effective against teams trying to spin it wide when they don't have front foot ball I.E. the ABs under Hansen and Foster the last few years. The very simple answer is keep it in close where the rush defense doesn't apply and get some go-forward. As soon as you get some front foot ball it's nearly impossible for the opposition to do any kind of rushing up without being miles offside. We saw that's the answer in Lions 1, it's absolutely baffling that we haven't learnt from that.
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@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
@nzzp said in Who is to blame?:
@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
Overall I think we are still very vulnerable and we don't react particularly well when things aren't going our way. I think teams will back themselves to play basic, aggressive rugby and wait for us to start making mistakes
That is hard to do well for 80 minutes though. Accurate rush defences are bloody hard to break down, but hard to get right. I hope someone will find a way of unlocking them, and it'll be attack happy again, with good rugby being rewarded.
I still think it's Lions 1 - slashing diagonal runs near the base of the breakdown that'll get them. Have supporters, just make the defence go up and back, upd and back
You allude to it already, but a rush defense is only effective against teams trying to spin it wide when they don't have front foot ball I.E. the ABs under Hansen and Foster the last few years. The very simple answer is keep it in close where the rush defense doesn't apply and get some go-forward. As soon as you get some front foot ball it's nearly impossible for the opposition to do any kind of rushing up without being miles offside. We saw that's the answer in Lions 1, it's absolutely baffling that we haven't learnt from that.
We have learned from it though because we saw it in Bledisloe 2 (better execution) and in small parts in Bledisloe 3.
It’s just that we aren’t able to pull off the plays all the time because as @nzzp mentioned and I agree, it’s tough to sustain.
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@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
@Bovidae said in Who is to blame?:
@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
In terms of cards we came out better off. Reece committed an obvious professional foul on our 22 in the first half, just flopping on the ball and hanging onto it to stop them clearing. Similar to Koroibete but probably worse and got away with just a penalty.
I said before I'm not a fan of the card happy refs but it didn't end up benefiting Aus.
The red card situation definitely favoured Australia. They only lost Swinton but the ABs lost Ofa and Akira. The consequence of that was that Lomax played much more minutes than he was expected to, and faded in the 2nd half, and it removed one of the better performing players through no fault of his own. Losing a front rower to a red card early in a game is always a double whammy.
That's a fair point. Though we didn't have to lose Akira. We just went with the cookie cutter "sub off your 6 if you lose a front rower" despite Akira being one of our most effective players on the park.
Teams train to play without a 6 though and I'm pretty sure it's been clearly thought through that that is where you can best hide the gap.
I guess you could have chosen Ardie instead, but that would be losing one of our best players over the past couple of years for a guy on debut who had had a bright 20 minutes.
I don't think it's a very valid argument.
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@Chris-B said in Who is to blame?:
@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
@Bovidae said in Who is to blame?:
@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
In terms of cards we came out better off. Reece committed an obvious professional foul on our 22 in the first half, just flopping on the ball and hanging onto it to stop them clearing. Similar to Koroibete but probably worse and got away with just a penalty.
I said before I'm not a fan of the card happy refs but it didn't end up benefiting Aus.
The red card situation definitely favoured Australia. They only lost Swinton but the ABs lost Ofa and Akira. The consequence of that was that Lomax played much more minutes than he was expected to, and faded in the 2nd half, and it removed one of the better performing players through no fault of his own. Losing a front rower to a red card early in a game is always a double whammy.
That's a fair point. Though we didn't have to lose Akira. We just went with the cookie cutter "sub off your 6 if you lose a front rower" despite Akira being one of our most effective players on the park.
Teams train to play without a 6 though and I'm pretty sure it's been clearly thought through that that is where you can best hide the gap.
I guess you could have chosen Ardie instead, but that would be losing one of our best players over the past couple of years for a guy on debut who had had a bright 20 minutes.
I don't think it's a very valid argument.
And yes Sevu was having a stinker but you don’t replace a back in that circumstance unless you are willing to have a forward defend in the backline at set piece.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Who is to blame?:
@Chris-B said in Who is to blame?:
@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
@Bovidae said in Who is to blame?:
@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
In terms of cards we came out better off. Reece committed an obvious professional foul on our 22 in the first half, just flopping on the ball and hanging onto it to stop them clearing. Similar to Koroibete but probably worse and got away with just a penalty.
I said before I'm not a fan of the card happy refs but it didn't end up benefiting Aus.
The red card situation definitely favoured Australia. They only lost Swinton but the ABs lost Ofa and Akira. The consequence of that was that Lomax played much more minutes than he was expected to, and faded in the 2nd half, and it removed one of the better performing players through no fault of his own. Losing a front rower to a red card early in a game is always a double whammy.
That's a fair point. Though we didn't have to lose Akira. We just went with the cookie cutter "sub off your 6 if you lose a front rower" despite Akira being one of our most effective players on the park.
Teams train to play without a 6 though and I'm pretty sure it's been clearly thought through that that is where you can best hide the gap.
I guess you could have chosen Ardie instead, but that would be losing one of our best players over the past couple of years for a guy on debut who had had a bright 20 minutes.
I don't think it's a very valid argument.
And yes Sevu was having a stinker but you don’t replace a back in that circumstance unless you are willing to have a forward defend in the backline at set piece.
we took Kaino off for SBWs explosion against the Lions didn't we? That says pretty much everything.
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@mariner4life said in Who is to blame?:
@ACT-Crusader said in Who is to blame?:
@Chris-B said in Who is to blame?:
@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
@Bovidae said in Who is to blame?:
@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
In terms of cards we came out better off. Reece committed an obvious professional foul on our 22 in the first half, just flopping on the ball and hanging onto it to stop them clearing. Similar to Koroibete but probably worse and got away with just a penalty.
I said before I'm not a fan of the card happy refs but it didn't end up benefiting Aus.
The red card situation definitely favoured Australia. They only lost Swinton but the ABs lost Ofa and Akira. The consequence of that was that Lomax played much more minutes than he was expected to, and faded in the 2nd half, and it removed one of the better performing players through no fault of his own. Losing a front rower to a red card early in a game is always a double whammy.
That's a fair point. Though we didn't have to lose Akira. We just went with the cookie cutter "sub off your 6 if you lose a front rower" despite Akira being one of our most effective players on the park.
Teams train to play without a 6 though and I'm pretty sure it's been clearly thought through that that is where you can best hide the gap.
I guess you could have chosen Ardie instead, but that would be losing one of our best players over the past couple of years for a guy on debut who had had a bright 20 minutes.
I don't think it's a very valid argument.
And yes Sevu was having a stinker but you don’t replace a back in that circumstance unless you are willing to have a forward defend in the backline at set piece.
we took Kaino off for SBWs explosion against the Lions didn't we? That says pretty much everything.
Yep and Laumape came on.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Who is to blame?:
@mariner4life said in Who is to blame?:
@ACT-Crusader said in Who is to blame?:
@Chris-B said in Who is to blame?:
@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
@Bovidae said in Who is to blame?:
@No-Quarter said in Who is to blame?:
In terms of cards we came out better off. Reece committed an obvious professional foul on our 22 in the first half, just flopping on the ball and hanging onto it to stop them clearing. Similar to Koroibete but probably worse and got away with just a penalty.
I said before I'm not a fan of the card happy refs but it didn't end up benefiting Aus.
The red card situation definitely favoured Australia. They only lost Swinton but the ABs lost Ofa and Akira. The consequence of that was that Lomax played much more minutes than he was expected to, and faded in the 2nd half, and it removed one of the better performing players through no fault of his own. Losing a front rower to a red card early in a game is always a double whammy.
That's a fair point. Though we didn't have to lose Akira. We just went with the cookie cutter "sub off your 6 if you lose a front rower" despite Akira being one of our most effective players on the park.
Teams train to play without a 6 though and I'm pretty sure it's been clearly thought through that that is where you can best hide the gap.
I guess you could have chosen Ardie instead, but that would be losing one of our best players over the past couple of years for a guy on debut who had had a bright 20 minutes.
I don't think it's a very valid argument.
And yes Sevu was having a stinker but you don’t replace a back in that circumstance unless you are willing to have a forward defend in the backline at set piece.
we took Kaino off for SBWs explosion against the Lions didn't we? That says pretty much everything.
Yep and Laumape came on.
no wonder we fucking lost.
actually, as another black mark on the many, many marks of TJP's career, if A Smith played 80 that day, we win.
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@mariner4life one thing I faintly remember was when Vunipola got carded in the second half, I don’t think there was a scrum for a while so they weren’t forced to make a sub close to the time before he was able to come back on or be fully replaced.
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@MN5 said in Who is to blame?:
@NTA said in Who is to blame?:
@mariner4life said in Who is to blame?:
Okay I've just watched skinny Ioane carry on after a try, and he's heading for the top of the list.
And he did his stupid put-down again. Did he have a bad experience actually touching the ground as a kid?
If he bombs another try because he drops it in this fashion, does he get dropped for good?
His carry on was enough to make even Jeff Wilson blush.
Cullen just gave a bit of a wink after beating seven Scots defenders back in 96.
But I guess it was only Scotland
We had to put up for years with Wilson carrying on like a twat after scoring tries, with barely a murmur, now a dude with the last name Ioane does it and it's the end of the world.
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