The Cane vs Savea Debate
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@ACT-Crusader Ha!
If only Shag had listened to Fozzie before that game in Yokohama.....
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For the record I think Cane is a very, very good openside flanker. Probably world class. But so is Savea, and I much prefer what Savea brings to the table in terms of skillset.
An argument I've always found highly distasteful is that for the selection of a player predominantly for a skill which others in the team should have covered. And this is a huge part of the argument put forward for Cane: his dominant tackling. He shouldn't be there for that, but it's a bonus if it's part of a package which first and foremost includes winning turnovers and - for mine anyway - link play. But people argue for Cane because they believe we need his tackling which supposedly won't come from the 6 and 8. But it's 2020, not 2019. We don't have the new incarnation of Blair Larsen on the other flank and a number 8 who bucked NZ tradition and couldn't be usurped when past his best, due to lack of depth. Any combination of Sotutu, Grace and Frizzel should provide that grunt, and then the door is open for an openside who can provide the icing rather than providing the eggs to the batter.
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@pukunui said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
I think the “best” 7 for the ABs between Cane and Ardie depends entirely on who is in the 6 and 8 jersey.
If you have two guys who can carry and tackle hard then Cane becomes less important and Ardie’s mobility is a good thing to have.
But if you have guys who are more mobile but less physical then Cane’s defence becomes more important and Ardie is less appealing.Still think Cane at 7 and Ardie at 8 could work if they have someone smashing people Kaino style at 6. Grave of Frizzell could be that sort of 6.
Hopefully Sotutu goes so well at 8 that this is only a backup option though.Sounds spooky
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
For the record I think Cane is a very, very good openside flanker. Probably world class. But so is Savea, and I much prefer what Savea brings to the table in terms of skillset.
An argument I've always found highly distasteful is that for the selection of a player predominantly for a skill which others in the team should have covered. And this is a huge part of the argument put forward for Cane: his dominant tackling. He shouldn't be there for that, but it's a bonus if it's part of a package which first and foremost includes winning turnovers and - for mine anyway - link play. But people argue for Cane because they believe we need his tackling which supposedly won't come from the 6 and 8. But it's 2020, not 2019. We don't have the new incarnation of Blair Larsen on the other flank and a number 8 who bucked NZ tradition and couldn't be usurped when past his best, due to lack of depth. Any combination of Sotutu, Grace and Frizzel should provide that grunt, and then the door is open for an openside who can provide the icing rather than providing the eggs to the batter.
Dare I mention Ioane?
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@booboo Umm well I've resisted talking about this for four whole days, but on Thursday night I was privy to the actual Canterbury / Crusaders analysis of Akira Ioane and the stats don't paint the picture that he can offer that particular skill. And his character was called into question, to boot.
But for mine, he's impressed me in a handful of games this season. It's a small sample but let's hope the stats aren't the be all and end all, and the single opinion expressed was also just that, and incorrect.
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
For the record I think Cane is a very, very good openside flanker. Probably world class. But so is Savea, and I much prefer what Savea brings to the table in terms of skillset.
An argument I've always found highly distasteful is that for the selection of a player predominantly for a skill which others in the team should have covered. And this is a huge part of the argument put forward for Cane: his dominant tackling. He shouldn't be there for that, but it's a bonus if it's part of a package which first and foremost includes winning turnovers and - for mine anyway - link play. But people argue for Cane because they believe we need his tackling which supposedly won't come from the 6 and 8. But it's 2020, not 2019. We don't have the new incarnation of Blair Larsen on the other flank and a number 8 who bucked NZ tradition and couldn't be usurped when past his best, due to lack of depth. Any combination of Sotutu, Grace and Frizzel should provide that grunt, and then the door is open for an openside who can provide the icing rather than providing the eggs to the batter.
@Bones even I don’t go this far back with my anecdotes on past players
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@booboo Umm well I've resisted talking about this for four whole days, but on Thursday night I was privy to the actual Canterbury / Crusaders analysis of Akira Ioane and the stats don't paint the picture that he can offer that particular skill. And his character was called into question, to boot.
But for mine, he's impressed me in a handful of games this season. It's a small sample but let's hope the stats aren't the be all and end all, and the single opinion expressed was also just that, and incorrect.
I hope you don’t think you are going to get away with not spilling the beans a bit more on what you heard.
Surely it’s time for another Akira thread.Regardless, I agree, Akira doesn’t fill that Kaino role of smashing people. He offers something different which is closer to what Savea offers ie. athleticism and ball skills.
Sotutu seems to be a mix of both. -
@pukunui huh that's interesting - what I noticed most about Aoane this year was his brutal defence. Guys would just stop dead running into him and he's very good at holding people up.
Also interesting.... didn't Ardie have waaaay more dominant tackles than Cane this year?
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@Bones said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@pukunui huh that's interesting - what I noticed most about Aoane this year was his brutal defence. Guys would just stop dead running into him and he's very good at holding people up.
Also interesting.... didn't Ardie have waaaay more dominant tackles than Cane this year?
I’d be interested in what they expect from Aoane.
This season he was very dominant in the tackle. Pretty impressive really.
What I noticed from my armchair view though was he still seems a little lost in attack. Frizzel may not appear to hit as hard in the tackle or drive attacker players back like Aoane did, but he seems far more involved and assured in attack. This isn’t just about ball carriers, but attack ruck play, getting back in alignment.
I guess with Cane being captain it really comes down to who complements Cane at 7. At this point I would say it’s Frizzell.
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@booboo Umm well I've resisted talking about this for four whole days, but on Thursday night I was privy to the actual Canterbury / Crusaders analysis of Akira Ioane and the stats don't paint the picture that he can offer that particular skill. And his character was called into question, to boot.
But for mine, he's impressed me in a handful of games this season. It's a small sample but let's hope the stats aren't the be all and end all, and the single opinion expressed was also just that, and incorrect.
Great oil. 👍
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@Yeetyaah said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
It's always a funny debate. I like them both. Savea runs hard and has pace, Cane is a bit more technical and is better defensively.
I think people who watch rugby a bit more casually see Ardie run hard and think he's automatically better. I see people making the argument on Facebook all the time and if anyone disagrees they spam clown emojis and think they won the argument.
I don't think Cane has ever not played well in the black jersey, same with Ardie.
However, one thing Cane has over Ardie is his defensive work. We lack the physical presence when he isn't on the field e.g. RWC semi final.
In a team that has been roundly and justifiably criticised as having gone a bit soft over the past few years, it's really odd to me that so many are so keen to jettison one of the very few available genuine hard fluffybunnies - he broke his neck 2 years ago FFS - in favour of another loose forward who does his best work running ball in the wide channels.
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
The greatest player who ever wore the black 7 jersey also had absolute tits for hands. Clearly, we don't expect perfection and can tolerate some flaws for strengths in other areas
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@pukunui said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@booboo Umm well I've resisted talking about this for four whole days, but on Thursday night I was privy to the actual Canterbury / Crusaders analysis of Akira Ioane and the stats don't paint the picture that he can offer that particular skill. And his character was called into question, to boot.
But for mine, he's impressed me in a handful of games this season. It's a small sample but let's hope the stats aren't the be all and end all, and the single opinion expressed was also just that, and incorrect.
I hope you don’t think you are going to get away with not spilling the beans a bit more on what you heard.
Surely it’s time for another Akira thread.Regardless, I agree, Akira doesn’t fill that Kaino role of smashing people. He offers something different which is closer to what Savea offers ie. athleticism and ball skills.
Sotutu seems to be a mix of both.This is a good point, because that NI back row looked like they'd run riot in the NI vs SI game, but it didn't quite work, perhaps because all of those players are very similar - in good ways - in that they all can be very effective with ball in hand, and can all make dominant, tackles, and can be very effective in the loose. But, for that to happen, there needs to be the grunt work being done, bodies being moved etc. and my feeling is that it was harder to design a game-plan that took advantage of each of their strengths, as they seem to overlap a lot. For example, all three are good off the back of the scrum, but only one can play 8.
They are all good with a bit of space, but we need two (probably, depending on who is at 2) primarily in the middle of the park. That should mean that having three similar players sounds good, but what if the primary role of the guy in the middle is getting off his ass faster than everyone and being into absolutely everything? (let's call it the McCaw role). If that's the role needed for one player, I can totally see why they might feel like they need a Cane out there - being the benchmark for workrate and commitment on both sides of the ball.
Although I don't trust the stats from rugbypass so much, a quick look at the stats for Super rugby for Cane and Savea indicates that Cane just gets in the game much more often. We are comparing 8 versus 11 games, but Cane made more than twice as many successful tackle attempts as Savea, despite having a lower percentage of tackle success.
On attack, Savea is way out front. Cane gets you less metres, and far fewer defenders beaten, but one question might be when and how those metres get made and those defenders get beaten? It may very well be that Savea gets most of his metres, many of his try try assists, and even many of his turnovers, during the last 30 minutes of a game. If that is that case, it makes sense to have the more involved Cane on for the the full 80 or first 50 (it's only a matter of time before we start subbing our captain) and having Savea there to finish things off - taking advantage of tired defenders and the game opening up.
We can put them both out there at some stage in the game, and that might be the very best way to use both of their talents to suit our strategy - certainly if it is to finish games. Starting them both means Ardie needs to be WC 8 - which he isn't - or Cane needs to be a WC 6 - which he isn't - so finding the right balance of when to use whose skill is crucial.
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@booboo Umm well I've resisted talking about this for four whole days, but on Thursday night I was privy to the actual Canterbury / Crusaders analysis of Akira Ioane and the stats don't paint the picture that he can offer that particular skill. And his character was called into question, to boot.
But for mine, he's impressed me in a handful of games this season. It's a small sample but let's hope the stats aren't the be all and end all, and the single opinion expressed was also just that, and incorrect.
Was this recent analysis or from the start of the year? We've heard that before and it's quite believable. But everybody would have to admit he's been a massive improved this year.
But this is an anti-Chiefs player thread not an anti-Blues player thread, let's not digress ...
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It's funny how Cane's handling is being knocked - not saying it has been great lately but when he burst on the scene he had quite good hands and was a decent link player.
If there is one game we can point to the difference between the players, its the biggest game of last year. Speculative but I think everyone would agree we needed more dominant tackles and tight physicality.
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mofitzy_ So you're saying it's the openside flankers' role to provide all that physicality?
It's everyone's job to provide physicality in the modern game - aside from nine (and they used to!) and the occaisional outside back like Kolbe or DMac.
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mofitzy_ So you're saying it's the openside flankers' role to provide all that physicality?
No, it's everyones. This argument that if we have a hard hitting 6 then we can afford to carry someone who is passive in the loose forwards is ridiculous. Test rugby against good opposition is trench warfare and every opportunity we get to stop their forward progress so they give us the ball back needs to be taken.
Cane is a better openside flanker in the mould of McCaw. He reads the game better than other flankers, he gets involved more than other flankers and his involvements matter.
