AB "What could have been" XV
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@shark said in AB "What could have been" XV:
Uncle Lozza was just an out and out terrible selector. A real experimentalist. Not helped by having Peter Thorburn alongside him, of course.
..and Earle Kirton. He thought Marc Ellis was a ten and Wilson could take the goalkicking
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@Duluth said in AB "What could have been" XV:
@shark said in AB "What could have been" XV:
Uncle Lozza was just an out and out terrible selector. A real experimentalist. Not helped by having Peter Thorburn alongside him, of course.
..and Earle Kirton. He thought Marc Ellis was a ten and Wilson could take the goalkicking
......and they all thought Liam Barry was an All Black
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@shark I agree Mains was a poor selector but its BS to say he didn't realise Zinny's value. Brooke played in all the tests against Oz in 92 and against SA and was an ever present under Mains. Pene did start in a Lions Test in 93 and against England that year (Zinnie was at 6) but Pene was Player of the years that season so Mains wasn't alone in thinking he had the goods.
The Auckland tight 5 was pretty much locked in for all of Mains tenure although Loe when available was preferred to Dowd. It was Wyllie who failed to see how good Brown and R Brooke were not Mains.
Mains was the forwards coach and usually had us going well. It was Thorburn in the backs who tried all the crazy shit.
@MN5 In 96 Hart said Liam Barry was the unluckiest player in NZ not to make the squad to go to SA. If you're talking overrated AB open sides it's Hart who had the hard on for Mark Carter....
Most coaches have made some dubious selection calls but it certainly wasn't Lauries strength
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@dogmeat said in AB "What could have been" XV:
@shark I agree Mains was a poor selector but its BS to say he didn't realise Zinny's value. Brooke played in all the tests against Oz in 92 and against SA and was an ever present under Mains. Pene did start in a Lions Test in 93 and against England that year (Zinnie was at 6) but Pene was Player of the years that season so Mains wasn't alone in thinking he had the goods.
The Auckland tight 5 was pretty much locked in for all of Mains tenure although Loe when available was preferred to Dowd. It was Wyllie who failed to see how good Brown and R Brooke were not Mains.
Mains was the forwards coach and usually had us going well. It was Thorburn in the backs who tried all the crazy shit.
@MN5 In 96 Hart said Liam Barry was the unluckiest player in NZ not to make the squad to go to SA. If you're talking overrated AB open sides it's Hart who had the hard on for Mark Carter....
Most coaches have made some dubious selection calls but it certainly wasn't Lauries strength
Carter at the very least had one outstanding game against Oz. He got a lot of unjustified hatred when he was playing.
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@mofitzy_ said in AB "What could have been" XV:
@Catogrande
Tokoroa poaching is a joke harking back to when Stephen Jones claimed Mealamu (?) was poached from the island of Tokoroa. Tokoroa is a small town in NZ.Yes. Thank you. Was aware.
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@shark said in AB "What could have been" XV:
Uncle Lozza was just an out and out terrible selector. A real experimentalist. Not helped by having Peter Thorburn alongside him, of course.
When he started stamping his mark in 1992 - initially in a trial - he showed his hand immediately. Bernie McCahill was selected at 10 (albeit pretty much as a way to show him the door), and then he selected the likes of Pod Turner in his World XV series squad and tried Walter Little at 10 also. It took Mains until 1994 to recognise Zinny's value as well.
That initial squad included an influx of Otago players in Paul Henderson, Jamie Joseph, Arran Pene, Marc Ellis and Greg Cooper.
The third test was when he dropped Bachop for Strachan.
Mains was all over the show. Luckily, Mehrts, Kronfeld, Jonah and Osborne emerged in 1994 and by 1995 he had sensibly settled on the experienced Auckland core of his pack in Brown, Fitzy, Dowd, R Brooke, Jones and Zinny.
Pod Turner was quite a good player. I recall watching him in a HB v Akl Ranfurly Shield match and he was just everywhere. Became a fanboi but he never really lived up to that level again. Pne for 'the what could have been' thread .
Little was a 10 all through age group and in his initial first class footy. Hardly surprising he was looked at as a 10 first up. ( Bernie McCahill though ... )
Those Otago players were all pretty deserving, at least of squad places (with perhaps the exception of Pene).
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@Tim said in AB "What could have been" XV:
Matthew Cooper out of position at 12 was another face palm.
Played Cooper at 12 (Putaruru v Hamilton Marist).
Didn't seem out of position.
Seemed kind very fucking big. And fast. And likely to injure me just by moving in my direction.
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@Catogrande said in AB "What could have been" XV:
@mofitzy_ said in AB "What could have been" XV:
@Catogrande
Tokoroa poaching is a joke harking back to when Stephen Jones claimed Mealamu (?) was poached from the island of Tokoroa. Tokoroa is a small town in NZ.Yes. Thank you. Was aware.
IIRC:
- Thought it was Butler
- Never mentioned "Island" or "Tokoroa" only place (Or maybe country) of birth
But my memory could be hazy, and the article in question seems to have been removed from the archives...
An old Fernet (Mr Mike) had a copy ... But he's disappeared.
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@booboo said in AB "What could have been" XV:
@Tim said in AB "What could have been" XV:
Matthew Cooper out of position at 12 was another face palm.
Played Cooper at 12 (Putaruru v Hamilton Marist).
Didn't seem out of position.
Seemed kind very fucking big. And fast. And likely to injure me just by moving in my direction.
Cooper at 12 looked good in Goldies debut v Scotland
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@booboo More that I was aware of the running joke. To be fair to Butler (and I feel dirty saying that), if it was him was likely to be a piss take. The walrus not so much.
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@Catogrande maybe he was told by a person of Asian descent that Mealamu was Tokoroan and...well... you know...
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@mariner4life and absolutely clumsy as shit on the series clinching loss to France at Eden Park!
A game that meant something.
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Cooper at 12 was really to compromise for the fact post-Fox 10s didn't kick goals (S Bachop and Ellis) and the still (3 years later!) post Gallager and Ridge fullbacks were converted wingers who also didn't kick goals.
Which led to other compromised selections. Howarth at fullback, good player, dead eye kicker but not quite fast enough. Or Mannix at 10 for test-debut v France in 94. Which was the worst debut I've ever seen unfortunately.
But no argument that Mains was a poor selector. And Thorburn and Kirton were very 'progressive' and experimental. So, no brakes from any adults in the selectorial meetings. My God, they were fun and interesting times though ....
In the professional age. Hopefully not a problem that should repeat. Every 10 and 15 should be proficient. Just look at S Bachop, Botica, Ridge even Johhny Schuster when they went to league (or when union became pro in Bachop's case, no way that swing-door would ever have got a league contract ... ) and got paid to practice. Suddenly became dead-eyes.
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@Rapido said in AB "What could have been" XV:
Cooper at 12 was really to compromise for the fact post-Fox 10s didn't kick goals (S Bachop and Ellis) and the still (3 years later!) post Gallager and Ridge fullbacks were converted wingers who also didn't kick goals.
Yes, as evidenced in the loss to England in 1993. Cooper was injured from the previous test against Scotland so with Timu at fullback and Ellis at 1st 5 a young Wilson (in his second test) was forced to be the goal kicker, and missed plenty.
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@Rapido said in AB "What could have been" XV:
Mannix at 10 for test-debut v France in 94. Which was the worst debut I've ever seen unfortunately
Colin Farrell
although to be fair Farrell played bloody good rugby for Akl and would have thrived in the modern game. Running fullback but picked too young and played in poor conditions in a team that didn't want to run the ball.
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@dogmeat said in AB "What could have been" XV:
although to be fair Farrell played bloody good rugby for Akl and would have thrived in the modern game. Running fullback but picked too young and played in poor conditions in a team that didn't want to run the ball.
Absolutely. He was great for AKL which is why he got into the ABs. Had a bloody 'mare though when there.
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The story of his selection is an interesting one!
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@Bovidae said in AB "What could have been" XV:
@Rapido said in AB "What could have been" XV:
Cooper at 12 was really to compromise for the fact post-Fox 10s didn't kick goals (S Bachop and Ellis) and the still (3 years later!) post Gallager and Ridge fullbacks were converted wingers who also didn't kick goals.
Yes, as evidenced in the loss to England in 1993. Cooper was injured from the previous test against Scotland so with Timu at fullback and Ellis at 1st 5 a young Wilson (in his second test) was forced to be the goal kicker, and missed plenty.
And with Tim's post above, second test v France. Cooper was re-selected again at 12. To kick goals, as Mannix was dropped after first test.
It's a pain in the arse when you don't have a player and his replacement of equally proficient goal kicking skill. End up with compromised selections and entire backline reshuffles to cover for the flaw. Like a fullback at centre in RWC semi-finals.
