What is the best AB Midfield?
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@mn5 said in What is the best AB Midfield?:
s a bit. Co
Personally I want to see the following...
JordieB at 12, Goodhue at 13
the other backs being...
Rieko Ben Smith BeaudanB Richie Mo'unga -
@mn5 said in What is the best AB Midfield?:
@victor-meldrew said in What is the best AB Midfield?:
The 12-13 slot seems to have been jinxed by injury for years now - Crotty, Ngatai & Kahui before them have been injury magnets. Hansen has struggled to develop combinations to replace Smith/Nonu since 2012-3.
ALB looks the goods to me but needs a solid midfield general as a partner until he matures a bit. Could be Crotty or Ngatai but certainly ain't SBW.
How could we forget Ngatai
You are reaching Davidav and Toeava levels with this Ngatai stuff. Give it a rest.
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@pukunui said in What is the best AB Midfield?:
@mn5 said in What is the best AB Midfield?:
@victor-meldrew said in What is the best AB Midfield?:
The 12-13 slot seems to have been jinxed by injury for years now - Crotty, Ngatai & Kahui before them have been injury magnets. Hansen has struggled to develop combinations to replace Smith/Nonu since 2012-3.
ALB looks the goods to me but needs a solid midfield general as a partner until he matures a bit. Could be Crotty or Ngatai but certainly ain't SBW.
How could we forget Ngatai
You are reaching Davidav and Toeava levels with this Ngatai stuff. Give it a rest.
It's nice that people are paying attention though. I might win a fern award.
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@wairau said in What is the best AB Midfield?:
@mn5 said in What is the best AB Midfield?:
s a bit. Co
Personally I want to see the following...
JordieB at 12, Goodhue at 13
the other backs being...
Rieko Ben Smith BeaudanB Richie Mo'ungaIs this a piss take?
Beauden showed all that promise, took forever to mature enough to even start and since he's been running the backline it has dropped in performance.
But the promise of Jordy and Goodhue is all that is required to be the solution? In practice the odds are, like most ABs, that they don't live up to the hype. Jordy's defence is massively suspect, and Goodhue has only ever been seen in winning teams, where it is easy to look good when you are a centre.
I want to see a couple of seasons of them before they get near starting.
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@chester-draws woohoo, Northland is a winning team, finally!
He looked good and stood out as a player of his caliber should at M10 Cup level
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No, actually not. I'm thinking of the RWC. And Rieko went from no tests to being an amazing wing this year, so your negativity is too much.
I don't want BB at 10. I like him at 15, hitting gaps at full speed.
I want Mo at 10, more of a natural playmaker.
I want Ben Smith and Rieko as wings
That leaves 12/13
I concede they are new, but we need a better 13, smart defender and capable of putting outsides away more often.
12? Well, it's his favoured position. If you have a better suggestion, let's see it.Perhaps keep SBW as long as 10 and 13 are better able to play around him and the space he creates all the time.
And a better backline coach. -
My negativity is from seeing way too many "next big things" not pan out. ALB was awesome last year and you've already discarded him.
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Goodhue was also very good against a near full strength Lions team as well, one of the few Crusaders to come out of that match looking good. His class is undeniable IMO.
A few random thoughts...
Short term I'm comfortable with SBW-Crotty in the midfield, with Goodhue and Laumape getting time where possible. As I mentioned in the other thread I'd like to see SBW at first receiver more often with Beauden setting up a bit wider to utilise both players strengths (offloads / speed).
Jordie was all class at 15 and that should be where he stays IMO. I can see him developing into one of the best in the world there - he has all the required attributes (great boot, great under the high ball, good vision etc). I'd like to see Ben Smith back at 14 when both are in the squad.
ALB... had a great breakout season but will need to step up his game on recent times if he is going to compete for a starting spot.
Sopoaga and Mo'unga are a fair way off the required level at the moment. That could change, but right now I can't see them taking the 10 jumper. I think we just need to use Beauden more intelligently.
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I mostly agree with that. Watching the game again, I think that with ball in hand, Barrett was pretty good and is using SBW more effectively. I like the idea of using SBW at first receiver too.
On the other hand, right now our kicking game is where I'm most worried. I think Barrett has been really poor and doesn't seem to be developing a variety of options to use. It may be that we have a strategy to only put up contestable kicks, but many of those haven't been that contestable, and they are often not as appropriate as other options that could be taken. I look at the Chief's kicking game versus the All Blacks and I think that we're doing a poorer job than the Chiefs. That may be down to strategy (a few games where they've avoided kicking at all) but it's still something that I'd like to see us bring in to the game more appropriately in the next year.
By the way, I think that Goodhue is ready and will be given a chance in 2018. As much as I like Crotty (who I thought did well cleaning up a few messes around him on defense last week), he's been increasingly made of glass so when he gets injured I expect Goodhue will step in. The best news for me in this tour is that SBW finally looks at home at 2nd five. I still don't trust his instincts (see YC) but I'm not the coach, and he's been the one senior All Black who is probably playing as good as ever and seems to actually be developing new skills and ways to contribute. It's a bit off topic, but he's probably the only senior AB who's reputation is growing. Whitelock and (mostly) Cane are staying steady, while others are doing better than any replacements (see Smith, Read) but still not really close to the very best they've been.
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@gt12 yeah, the kicking game is a bit of a worry. Never been a real strength of Beauden's, though his little brother might be able to take some heat off in that regard when back. Someone else mentioned it (may have been you) but am surprised DMac hasn't been used more to clear the line, he has a pretty accurate punt from what I can see.
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@gt12 @No-Quarter Totally agree re BB general play kicking, Carter was just sublime in this area. I think without Dagg and Smith to assist BB he has struggled to get distance and accuracy. We have also been guilty of some pretty poor box kicks and chips that just gift possession back. That stupid kick of DMac springs to mind.
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@chimoaus reckon when Dagg is there as first receiver, it gives the opposition a bit more to think about as well with BB ready to take on the line while Dagg is ready to unleash his kick, whereas with just BB as first receiver most often it limits our options.
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Ot's one thing about Mckenzie (or the way he is being used) which pisses me off. He makes great territory kicks for the Chiefs in just that position, but almost never is used like that for the ABs.
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Having just watched a replay of the game v Scotland, I tried to note down the ABs backline plays from set piece.
Can't vouch for 100% accuracy but should give some guide as to the game plan on Saturday, not sure how representative this is for other matches of late, but might give some idea as to midfield issues - attack centric as I am of the opinion that defence is not a big issue.
SBW hit up as first receiver 3 (one try assist for BB try)
SBW hit up as second receiver 3 (one try assist grubber for DMac try)
SBW pass from second receiver 2, one to Crotty, one to Ioane
BB kick 1
BB run 1
Ioane hit up as second receiver 1So at least from Saturday it seems to me, we are playing without an effective attacking centre.
Crotty basically not involved in any way in the attack going forward, one carry from an SBW pass and into contact.
So game plan is not looking to use Crotty to take the ball to the opposition defence, either running or passing and feeding the wingers/creating space.
Seems very odd to me, so his role seems to be defensive where he was very good.
But I would like to see more variety in attack from midfield, and a centre who is involved in the game plan and is able to keep the opposition defence guessing.
I suspect to some extent this might be due to SBW not being a great running/passing 12 a la Nonu, he might grow into that skill set but I think it may be restricting the AB attack variation currently. Hard to argue with two great try assists but not sure how sustainable such an attack plan is.
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@infidel Very interesting, I recall the stats from a game Vs Australia where Crotty I think made two carries or similar. You would have to assume the opposition has the same analysis so they would bet most of the time SBW will take the ball. Perhaps why his grubbers have been effective as the opposition would be looking to nail him as soon as he touches it.
So who actually makes the set piece calls? is it from the coaches box or does BB make the call based on field position etc?
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I have definitely been noticing a similar trend this season. So often good attacking ball from a set piece is wasted by a simple hit up at first or second reciever with very little deception or use of extra space. SBW has been used like that, Laumape has been used like that and one of the worst examples was Dagg being used to hit it up in the final minutes of third (was it third?) Lions test.
The other one that has been over used this season is Read taking it off the back of the scrum and doing some silly little 8-9 move that usually ends up in a knock on or spilled pass because of all the traffic.
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Yeah that's some interesting stuff, nice @infidel
@chimoaus perhaps it's Foster going back to his tried and true, just minus one Sivivatu?
Interesting to see those attacking "moves" also and think back to the brilliant inter-linking between ALB and Crotty last year, most notably on quick, flat ball. So we know they're both capable.
As often noted, I can't see how this season has been anything other than "reserved" play. Has been a very limited and stunted attack we've shown, often with a real reluctance to create and use space in the wider channels.
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@gt12 said in What is the best AB Midfield?:
he's probably the only senior AB who's reputation is growing. Whitelock and (mostly) Cane are staying steady
I think Cane's reputation has increased massively this year. At the beginning of the year there were plenty of people saying he shouldn't be starting (Ardie should have been). I don't hear many people disputing his place in the team anymore.
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@milk said in What is the best AB Midfield?:
@gt12 said in What is the best AB Midfield?:
he's probably the only senior AB who's reputation is growing. Whitelock and (mostly) Cane are staying steady
I think Cane's reputation has increased massively this year. At the beginning of the year there were plenty of people saying he shouldn't be starting (Ardie should have been). I don't hear many people disputing his place in the team anymore.
People who don't ever watch rugby? What sane rugby watcher would ever think Ardie would start over Cane?
