All Blacks v Ireland II
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I suspect we all have it wrong regarding the Cane tackle and subsequent penalty. While the players were waiting to restart you can hear Peyper say "the injury was caused by a head clash" he also explained to Read "he brought his arm up but the timing was out" (or similar).
I think the penalty was actually for a shoulder charge.
The whole event was just one of those things that happen in a dynamic game. Cane was making a legit tackle but Henshaw spun and moved in an unpredictable way causing the timing to go wrong.
Headclash happened and arm came around late making it all look worse.
It wasn't even clumsy, just a product of unpredictable moving parts. -
@Rapido said in Ireland II:
@Toddy said in Ireland II:
The Cane tackle was pretty ugly though. Here's another angle
Doesn't appear to be a head clash.
I never thought it was a head clash, so nothing cleared up for me with that.
Which part of head on head contact (clearly visible as coming first) are you choosing to ignore?
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@antipodean said in Ireland II:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland II:
man there are some tears coming from the Irish in the aftermath....cheating, dirty, out to mame players at every touch....
The normally measured Murray Kinsella is even taking the koolaid. Contrast their response with the congratulations from all and sundry when they finally managed a win two weeks ago.
I saw this from that article:
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This Test match was utterly physical, but Barrett’s ability to slow the game down and see the opportunity was crucial."What does that even mean?
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@Toddy said in Ireland II:
The Cane tackle was pretty ugly though. Here's another angle
Doesn't appear to be a head clash.
Strange how we all see different things. It makes you immediately understand why witness accounts of crimes are often so unreliable.
After watching this and other footage multiple times, and imagining the roles were reversed (trying to get a more objective opinion), this is what I see.
First, Henshaw's body position is in a slight downward angle due to contact with Read. Because of this angle he basically moves in the direction of Cane's right shoulder.
At the same time, Cane uses his left arm for the tackle, but is slightly late with his right, which goes forward shoulder first in the direction of Henshaw's shoulder. There seems to be an intent to use his arm though.
Due to Henshaw moving slightly downward, Cane's shoulder doesn't hit Henshaw's shoulder but Henshaw's left jaw or ear.
However, in the same movement or a fraction of a second prior, their heads clash as well. The right side of Canes face seems to hit Henshaw's forehead/temple. It's this head clash that seems to cause Henshaw to go down (not the shoulder).The question is whether Cane could have avoided this from happening. IMO that's not the case. It all happened at full speed. Even if you'd argue that he should have used his right arm faster to avoid a shoulder clash, he could never have influenced Henshaw's downward movement. There's also no way he could have seen that coming.
It's all in the nature of the game. In accordance with the WR policy against high and dangerous tackles, I can live with the penalty, but don't think it was a YC.
Btw, the tackle on BB was entirely different and was a tackle on the neck/head and should have been penalised. I also think I can see BB ground the ball.
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@Stargazer mate you got links to the Cane tackle footage, preferably not only super slowmo?
I got done over by the phone charger not being plugged in 100 % correctly and hence no alarm. I'd wager I'm the only person on the planet that's ever happened to. -
@Siam said in Ireland II:
@Stargazer mate you got links to the Cane tackle footage, preferably not only super slowmo?
I got done over by the phone charger not being plugged in 100 % correctly and hence no alarm. I'd wager I'm the only person on the planet that's ever happened to.I'm sure you have Aaron Cruden's sympathy
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right i've just watched this, and had to listen to the irish commentators. now there's something i will never, ever do again. what a pack of fluffybunnies. they whinge all fucking day about high tackles from us, and then on being presented with multiple slow-motion replays of barrett being hit high while scoring they don't even fucking mention it? not even fucking once? not even a fucking hint of it? fucking hell, fuck off you one-eyed bags of shit. the irish played with a heap of heart and endeavour - the sort of thing i would normally warm to - but after having to listen to those fuckwits i can't help but despise the fucking lot of them.
as for peyper. what a total fucking idiot. the penalty count was atrocious, he was only looking at one side throughout. the aaron smith card - what the fuck was that? coming through the gate from behind the last feet, playing the ball with his foot, after it was out anyway, and he gets yellow carded? faaark offff you incompetent game-ruining fucking fool.ah, that's better.
as to the game. well, it was pretty good eh? intense, hard and fast. i had doubts about squire beforehand, and thought he was our best loosie. read too quiet. cane a couple of big hits before the injury but that was about it. savea energetic but ineffective. retallick was just fucking amazing, best player on the field by some margin. whitelock looked knackered from about 65 mins on, hands on hips, missing tackles, slow to get back etc. our props were outplayed. coles was good. the irish sub hooker was a dud, fucked their lineouts. their loosies were good, too many errors from o'brien though.
aaron smith, rough on the kicking. tj perenara - great footy player, pity the worst part of his game is his most important role. barrett, really good. courageous defence. missed one he should have made, but made several big ones. fekitoa was excellent, aside from the card which was terrible, and the kick out on the full. izzy dagg was absolutely instrumental in the middle stages coming in to 1st receiver and varying the attack. why we use cruden to kick for touch while he is on the field i will never understand. it's just fucking stupid.a heap of credit to ireland. losing 10 and 12 and still giving it shit and putting us under that much pressure is very, very impressive. fuck your commentators though, fuck them right in their arses.
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Those complaining the ABs didn't contest enough, it was pretty damn clear that O'Peyper was going to look for any reason to make up a penalty against the ABs. Watching towards the end of the match it was quite striking how the ABs were just tackle and ignore the breakdown completely, even to the extent of running away from Irish trying to clean out.
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Bugger me. The Cane thing was such a non-event it is ridiculous to even talk about it let alone be awarded a penalty. Same goes for the A.Smith YC! Yellow card for what Peyper? Coming through the gate and competing for the bloody ball? Arse!
The Barrett try was a try and no amount of replays from the side that obscures that and no replays from the angle that show that will change that. Arse!
The swinging arm to Barrett's head when he scored. Did it hurt Barrett? Did he complain?? NO! Non-event, stop clutching at straws and lowering yourselves to the level of "those" pathetic whinging paddies. Sexton's whinging and his petulance after the try was worse. He acted like an arse.
The Fekitoa head high was bad. Could have easily got a red. What were you thinking Fekitoa? Give yourself an uppercut.
Coles is one of my favourite players but he is going to get in trouble for doing things like trying to knock the ball out of opposition hands when they go for the quick penalty. Cynical!
When the Irish no. 14 player deliberately slapped the ball when Barrett passed to ??? to run in for a try. Should have been a yellow and penalty. Cynical!
O'Brian and Payne getting turnovers on their knees/lying on ground and not releasing tackled players. Arse! Sort yourself out Peyper!
BB/BBBR/SW/ID were fantastic as always. Ardie Savea played really well. Was into everything. Yes, everyone knows he needs more physicality but watch the game again without those preconceived ideas and you will see how industrious he was. A good knock.
For Ireland their backrow were again beasts esp. O'Brian. Their props move bodies at the ruck like bulldozers. A good side. Should roll the Aussies but Irish are temperamental. -
Just on watching the Cane Henshaw thing again you can actually make argument that Henshaw's spin around actually made him 'headbutt' Canes shoulder rather than Cane initiating contact (i.e. Henshaw's head was moving slightly faster than Cane's shoulder. The contact looks to be head and shoulder simultaneously. Absolutely no intent or clumsiness on Cane's part. He is actually crouching to go into the tackle so can hardly be targeting.
Whatever the initial contact I think Henshaw having to leave the field was probably more to do with landing heavily and his head whiplashing into the deck then being landed on by Cane's hip area. He basically got a triple-whammy.
All accidental and I could even live with a card if it was under the protocol that head contact is to be clamped down on and even accidental stuff treated harshly to force players to aim lower.
That said, the swinging arm on BB points to the officials not enacting any such protocol (if one exists at all)
Fekitoa's one was ugly and obvious. -
to me cane's tackle was just bad luck. one angle looked bad, but the other angle showed his left arm wrapping first - and the initial contact not high - then the right shoulder and head clash. just one of those things that happens in a contact sport.
fekitoa was clear yellow. so was sexton. -
Just looked at the Rugby Refs forum to see if there was any outrage/discussion and so far just these comments (both from Australian refs)
"Correct decision.
Looked bad at full speed but the slow-mo shows it was a head clash that floored the Irish player. Initial contact in the tackle was OK but rode up.""Two eyes in that commentary box - one for each commentator."
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@Samurai-Jack said in Ireland II:
Bugger me. The Cane thing was such a non-event it is ridiculous to even talk about it let alone be awarded a penalty. Same goes for the A.Smith YC! Yellow card for what Peyper? Coming through the gate and competing for the bloody ball? Arse!
I watched that sequence again and Peyper has it all wrong. The Irish set a maul and took it to ground - there's clearly an Irish player at the front on his knees. Peyper gives them a penalty advantage. That rolls into a tackle where Murray is unimpeded getting to the ball but is exposed because the Irish have gone off their feet beyond the ruck. Peyper calls a second penalty advantage. Aaron comes through from onside and kicks the ball without playing Murray. For that he receives a yellow card.
Unfortunately the TMO's correct ruling on Barrett's try appeared to fluster Jaco to the point he never addressed Sexton's foul play.
@Crucial said in Ireland II:
Just on watching the Cane Henshaw thing again you can actually make argument that Henshaw's spin around actually made him 'headbutt' Canes shoulder rather than Cane initiating contact (i.e. Henshaw's head was moving slightly faster than Cane's shoulder. The contact looks to be head and shoulder simultaneously. Absolutely no intent or clumsiness on Cane's part. He is actually crouching to go into the tackle so can hardly be targeting.
Whatever the initial contact I think Henshaw having to leave the field was probably more to do with landing heavily and his head whiplashing into the deck then being landed on by Cane's hip area. He basically got a triple-whammy.
All accidental and I could even live with a card if it was under the protocol that head contact is to be clamped down on and even accidental stuff treated harshly to force players to aim lower.The absurdity is Henshaw is taller than Cane so it's not like Cane was careless.
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@Crucial said in Ireland II:
Just looked at the Rugby Refs forum to see if there was any outrage/discussion and so far just these comments (both from Australian refs)
"Correct decision.
Looked bad at full speed but the slow-mo shows it was a head clash that floored the Irish player. Initial contact in the tackle was OK but rode up.""Two eyes in that commentary box - one for each commentator."
Their commentary was disgraceful and it got worse than this as the game went on:
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That's tame. Try the RTÉ commentary. It was far more biased.
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On another topic, I have just been watching BBs try again (by the way was able to freeze frame a clear and obvious grounding) and the making of that break is a brilliant piece of planning by Foster to utilise BBs acceleration.
Basically Ireland's defensive pattern is illegal. Their halfback moves across to cover the attacking 10 channel before the scrum ends without dropping behind his 8.20.12
(e)
The scrum half whose team does not win possession of the ball must not move away from the scrum and then remain in front of the offside line. For that scrum half that runs through the hindmost foot of that player’s team in the scrum.This means the 10 can drift to the attacking 12 etc creating an extra man in defence and looking to double team the ball carrier.
Instead of whinging to the ref about this what the ABs noticed is that the 10 will not come back in, he relies heavily on the 9 to cover the gap (which he usually can because he takes off early). So BB stationed himself wide and his outsides acted like they were going to be the ball carriers. AS then passed fast and long (better at this than TJP) and BB ran as close as he could to the inside shoulder of the 10 and just out of reach of the covering 9. The 10 could have easily tackled him but was relying on the 9. The initial pass was bang on, BBs speed and angle did the rest.I think this is what Foster meant in the post match when he said they spotted some players that pushed up and held in defence without actually wanting to tackle. It was exploited beautifully.
