Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown & Dublin Duel
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@Stargazer Cruden 1? Must've missed that
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4 carries for 5m, and Kaino 5 carries for 4 m....
Is dangerous taking stats in isolation, but those are not good reading for either Kaino or PT, aside from 9 tackles, Kaino didn't seem to do much else.
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3 Lessons New Zealand Can Take Away From Their Defeat To Ireland
Paul Wassell November 7, 2016 2,253 Views
Defeat is never easy for anyone, but it is the bitterest pill to swallow for a rugby nation as proud as New Zealand. However, a first ever loss to Ireland will serve the All Blacks well as they move towards the rest of their end of year campaign and into 2017.
That’s the thing that has come to define New Zealand under Steve Hansen – a defeat is seen not as the start of a downward trend or the beginning of the end of a golden era in the country’s beloved sport, but rather a springboard to even greater success and moving towards even more towering heights.
The surprising 27 – 19 loss to Australia at the ANZ Stadium in Sydney back in August last year saw the All Blacks romp to a 41 – 13 thrashing of the same opposition just a week later at Eden Park and begin the path that saw the team not only win the 2015 World Cup with relative ease but also cruise to a world record eighteen tests in a row.
The 27 – 25 defeat in Johannesburg in 2014 then saw New Zealand go undefeated throughout their northern hemisphere tour and defeat both Australia and the Springboks once more.
So what lessons will they learn this time around? Well a defeat to Ireland is of course unprecedented, but that will only mean the side will find ways to protect the new-found chinks in their previously near-impenetrable armour.
Firstly, the All Blacks normally have enough strength in depth to cope with injury losses, but also avoid trying to shove square pegs into round holes. Yet with the injuries of Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retallick, as well as Luke Romano absent from the squad, coach Hansen resorted to testing blindside Jerome Kaino in the second row. In a lock pairing with the talented but ultimately inexperienced Patrick Tuipulotu the set piece badly misfired, particularly at the lineout and an intelligent and efficient Ireland team made the New Zealanders pay.
Before the match Hansen said on his choice of locks (via Stuff.co.nz
“Jerome is very comfortable in the position, and we just thought it was a big ask for a young fellow [Scott Barrett].”
With Vaea Fifita also available, it will be imperative for the All Blacks to bring a better balance to their pack and ensure a greater clarity of thought at the lineout. Against Italy it may be the perfect chance to test the temperament of Barrett after an impressive performance from the bench against the men in green.
Additionally, the All Blacks will need to learn to better manage the choke tackle – a concept originally created by Ireland and one they used much to their advantage in Chicago. It’s a move that former England defence coach Andy Farrell adapted and adopted with England and one that he used with aplomb against the world’s best team last weekend. Much credit in this regard must be given to the work Ireland prop pairing Jack McGrath and Tadhg Furlong.
As well as this, New Zealand’s usually superb management of both referee and their own discipline was oddly missing against Ireland. Captain Rory Best dealt with French referee Mathieu Raynal very well, whilst as the All Blacks’ resolve slipped so too did Kieran Read’s patience. Joe Moody’s foolish challenge on Robbie Henshaw ultimately cost his side 12 points when they were reduced to 14 men. New Zealand fans will also recall Moody’s awful effort on Argentina’s Guido Petti back in September as well.
New Zealand are no strangers to yellow cards: 49 players have received 73 yellow cards – worse than every northern hemisphere side beside Italy and only beaten by South Africa (99 yellows from 57 players) and Australia (81 from 48). Yet their association with 10 minutes off the park is more to do with cynicism than stupidity. The All Blacks’ stoic approach to discipline has been such a huge part of their success in recent years.
12 penalties conceded to Ireland’s 4 tells you everything you need to know about the game and why Ireland won.
Moving forward then, here are three areas the world’s most consistent team will need to work on. A run out against the Italians will provide Hansen and his coaches with a chance to experiment a little more and get the right combinations for the return to Dublin in two weeks’ time. That match is likely to be yet another defining chapter in the latest incarnation of one of sport’s most iconic teams.
Paul Wassell, Pundit Arena
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I know I'm not as knowledgeable or as good at analysis as some of the posters on here, but I think the period between 50-65 is good to watch for what happened - not just in NZ turning on the gas as per previous matches this year and scoring two tries in quick succession, but also Ireland's response - they didn't cave completely, instead went back up the other end and got a penalty, then fought it out in midfield, before conceding the next score. From the kick off after that fourth try, at 65th minute, Ireland immediately went into attack mode and Carbery punted a perfect kick into touch again to gain ground. And that pretty much ended the hard-hitting spell from New Zealand, despite the dodgy quick throw by Coles and then Trimble's smash tackle to interrupt the break-out downfield.
Leaving that aside, the re-match will be fascinating to see what the coaches decide to do. Retallick and likely Whitlock will be back, I assume. Equally, Iain Henderson will be fit again, although I don't know whether Schmidt will start him instead of Ryan. Dillane is good off the bench. I assume that Perenara will start given the obvious difference between himself and Smith. Can Conor Murray deliver another 80 minute performance like the last day? Jordi Murphy is out for 6-9 months with an ACL injury, but Schmidt has got vdF, as well as O'Brien, and O'Mahony to come in, if he wants. He probably will leave the front rows along, unless he thinks Ross might be better to start than Furlong. Sexton just had cramp so should be good to go, but Jackson will be available to back him up, and Earls is back from 2-week ban. So there's likely to be changes to both line-ups, with Schmidt probably keeping it to a minimum.
Schmidt has called up 6 additional players to join for the Canada squad, including another 4 uncapped players - Adeolokun, Leavy, Sweetnam and O'Donoghue. He's clearly intent on bringing on newbies this season with nine uncapped players being looked at now. Carbery has had his first taste - wonder who else will get a chance in the remaining three matches, and will there be any in NZ-2?
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@dogmeat said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@rotated In the 2 mins I heard he also laid the blame for the loss at pandering to AIG, said the notion that Hansen was the best AB coach ever was a joke , kept frothing about the Olympics loss, said Tew should resign immediately and hung up on a guy who said he was a bit strong.
I didn't hear his complete show just the starting rant before he went to calls - included in the NZ herald link above.
Again, can hardly argue with many of those points the All Blacks preparation was clearly compromised by the nature of this fixture. Saying Hansen isn't the best we've had isn't any more stupid than saying he is unequivocally the best - which many have been saying.
Devlin amongst others basically has been banging on that this is the best team ever and we succeeded for 8 years in spite of Graham Henry who wasn't much good anyway. Other sections of the NZ media thought Cheika was the best coach in the world 12 months ago. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on something as subjective as that.
The Sevens performance was an absolute abortion, ending Titch's reign in such ignominy is not something that we should look at proudly. The Under 20s were an embarrassment also which he did not mention.
Tew thing seems a bit over the top - but this a drum he has been beating for some time.
It's a subjective thing. He isn't saying this is worse or the same as 1998. He is saying worst since - and in the rant he even said 2007 was worth noting too. I'd add 2001, 2002 and 2009 as contenders. But it all depends on how you weight NZ teams performance in Super Rugby, Sevens program, U20s, womens programs and general off field activities and the various international fixtures.
I don't think he deserves to be browbeaten just for having a contrary opinion - when it at least can be backed up with some evidence.
Again, we've had plenty of media saying this is the best team ever without being called our on it - that to me is a far more dubious claim than Watson's.
Rattue is a numpty though - at least Watson brings some evidence to the table when giving his hot takes.
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@KiwiMurph said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@rotated Also - I think you might be getting your years mixed up. 2001 was when Smith resigned and Mitchell took over (end of year tour) and we failed to get any teams in the Super Rugby playoffs. 2002 was Cantablacks year I think (Crusaders were undefeated Super champions in 2002).
You are right I confused the Smith replacement.
2002 would still be a poor year - the general mood around NZ rugby was historically poor - another Bledisloe loss wasn't great for moral, Mitchell being shit with the media, losing the RWC, pretty woeful EOYT that England loss had many similarities to this Irish one.
2009 was poor too with losses to France at home, then three on the trot against the Boks - but when viewed as a season Marsielle kind of saved the season and gave a clear sign that things were on the right track.
So Watson is probably wrong - with 2007 (which he noted), 2002 and 2009 being worse seasons. But this isn't up there with out best of the pro era either IMO (96, 97, 05, 06, 11, 13, 15).
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@Stargazer cheers for posting those but the very first stat doesn't appear accurate. I'm sure PT was subbed for Savea. Barrett finished the test with Squire at lock wasn't it. Then when Moala went off Savea moved to the backs and Codie Taylor to blindside.
Overall though, PT didn't seem to be in the game at all from watching it live. Thus far he has been a real spark off the bench and would probably put in more carries (for more metres) in his more usual role playing for 20 minutes.
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@ACT-Crusader You're absolutely right about PT not playing the whole game. I couldn't see the number of minutes in the stats until I enlarged my screen to over 200% because it's in a small graphic and I forgot to change it. I'll change it now.
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@ACT-Crusader This is the right graph with the position changes and subs during the test:
So when Cruden came on, BBarrett went to fullback, BSmith to the right wing and Naholo left the field.
But, when Moala got off injured, BSmith moved to 13, Ardie moved to the right wing and Taylor replaced him at 6 (where Ardie had entered the field earlier when Tuipulotu was subbed off). When Tuipulotu went off, Read moved to lock and Squire to 8.Pretty crazy.
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@Pot-Hale said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
I know I'm not as knowledgeable or as good at analysis as some of the posters on here, but I think the period between 50-65 is good to watch for what happened - not just in NZ turning on the gas as per previous matches this year and scoring two tries in quick succession, but also Ireland's response - they didn't cave completely, instead went back up the other end and got a penalty, then fought it out in midfield, before conceding the next score. From the kick off after that fourth try, at 65th minute, Ireland immediately went into attack mode and Carbery punted a perfect kick into touch again to gain ground. And that pretty much ended the hard-hitting spell from New Zealand, despite the dodgy quick throw by Coles and then Trimble's smash tackle to interrupt the break-out downfield.
Agree completely, the ABs came at them hard and instead of buckling they made some smart plays in the final 10 - 15 minutes to hang onto the lead. Most other sides would have ended up losing by 10 - 15 points IMO - it was a great performance and they played the full 80 which is bare minimum to beat the ABs.
The exit play at the end to spin it to the winger to gain 10 - 15 metres before punting the ball into our 22 was very clever. Savea having a brain fart obviously exasperated the issue for us but it was smart play under pressure from Ireland.
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@rotated assuming you listen to Watson, did he also provide the equivalent 7's, age group and womens results from the corresponding years he is saying are making this year so poor?
While 7s is part of NZR, it is a totally different sport and short of telling players they had no choice on which version to play, I cant see things having been any different, so cant really include it as a comparitive measure, in fact it was more in line back in those days you probably could make valid comparisons.
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forgetting the record and all that , Im hoping we will look back on this game as a turning point at some stage , our losses over the last decade have been a bit like that , all of them seem to get remembered as moments to learn from if you listen to guys like Richie talk .
Since the WC , we have been fantastic, but its all been pretty much downhill ,
Never been a fan of that saying we need a loss , but maybe when looking at the bigger picture of the 2019 WC , this will benefit us more than running over the top of another team
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It's a bit worrying that Whitelock and BBBT are apparently the only locks capable of playing 80 minutes. Patrick T was barely used during the RC and as far as I know has never played 80 minutes in a test. I still find the decision to choose Kaino at lock pretty stupid. I get that Barrett is young, but he is actually a lock and has played in the premier SH comp for a couple of years now. We have to trust that these guys can do the job, rather than chuck in a guy out of position. What's weird is that Hanson gave poor Broadhurst his début against the Boks in South Africa.
The graph above shows that it really was a perfect storm of shit that occurred in Chicago. They were all over the show at the end in terms of positions. Perhaps with fewer injuries they would have won comfortably in the end. But they should never have let the score blow out like they did in the first half.
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@rotated said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
If you actually listened to Watson's rant it is far from bait. His key points were:
- The ABs will destroy Ireland in Dublin and learn from their mistakes.
- This loss will have a positive impact on the ABs performance against the Lions next year as they will learn from their mistakes.
- The winning streak title is dubious given many victories happened last season with a distinctly different side.
- If you factor in the Olympics (very important) - this was the worst year for the NZRU since 1998.
I would agree with all those statements except 2002 was clearly worse with the Smith resignation (and Mitchell/Deans appointment), woeful on field performance, Cantablacks caps and the subhosting debacle.
I don't find his opinion any more stupid than the "best of all time" nonsense that was getting thrown around earlier in the season by many pundits.
It's not the worse year since 1998. Not even close. I think most NZ rugby fans had clinical depression after that 1998 season. NZ rugby is on a high and is more and more well-viewed, helped by our gracious response to defeat. I'm glad we don't have a coach like Woodward, Cheika or Gatland who would be a PR disaster for NZ. I hope Gatland never coaches in NZ again at professional level - you can't come in and piss everywhere in the media, then expect the fans to open their arms. Wales were awful in the weekend, anyway.
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@akan004 said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@Rapido You are missing the point. I was having a go at Veitch for being ok about the loss. I honestly don't give a rats arse about whether or not it was a good result for world rugby. From a NZ rugby perspective, it was a bad result.
I think you're being awfully precious. I actually think it was a blessing in disguise, the coaches now have to earn their crust, and it will prepare us better for the Lions and the English tests. We will learn heaps from that loss, and I would rather it was Ireland, than a series lost to the Lions...or England stopping our winning run...
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Comparisons with 1998? If TSF existed that year the Internet would have melted down.
And count me in as precious (and sour and bitter) for being as yet unwilling/unable to care about the supposed wider benefits to world rugby of the All Blacks losing to Ireland
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@Donsteppa said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
Comparisons with 1998? If TSF existed that year the Internet would have melted down.
And count me in as precious (and sour and bitter) for being as yet unwilling/unable to care about the supposed wider benefits to world rugby of the All Blacks losing to Ireland
For a start I am now highly anticipating the return clash. Rather than (yawn) NZ running in a 45-10 scoreline in Chicago, we now have to make sure we don't lose twice in a row, which I definitely would not accept nor be happy about.
For once reason is actually ok imo
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/86218037/mark-reason-holy-joe-guns-down-the-all-blacks
