Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown & Dublin Duel
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@Rancid-Schnitzel you'd think this weekend is when that rotation will occur.
I hope to see Sopoaga or Cruden start. Romero and possibly Fifita or Luatua at lock.
Dagg to come back and possibly have at fullback with one of Naholo/Savea and introduce Ioane to test rugby.
ALB and Fekitoa. Tamanivalu for bench.
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@Donsteppa said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
"What does a pick and go achieve"? Done every now and then it will stop defenders from fanning out quite as quickly. It might even find out whether a defender, say Aaron Smith, is occassionally too quick to drift out and not watch the inside channel...
If you look at Ireland's defence it had plenty of players around the ruck.
They were one-on-one coverage out wide and that's why we tried to move it quickly there with the little ball we had. We got yards out wide on occasions because of it but then made errors or turned it over.
I was impressed with how well the Irish wingers scrambled.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@Donsteppa said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
"What does a pick and go achieve"? Done every now and then it will stop defenders from fanning out quite as quickly. It might even find out whether a defender, say Aaron Smith, is occassionally too quick to drift out and not watch the inside channel...
If you look at Ireland's defence it had plenty of players around the ruck.
They were one-on-one coverage out wide and that's why we tried to move it quickly there with the little ball we had. We got yards out wide on occasions because of it but then made errors or turned it over.
I was impressed with how well the Irish wingers scrambled.
I'm still a fan of some variation. Slightly easier to scramble well when you know exactly what'll be expected of you. Harder when there's at least some variation, and maybe one or two of your inside defenders have taken just one or two steps closer to the ruck.
I wouldn't have them doing pick n go's or crash ball close to the ruck all day either, but there's a place for variation. Especially when you have Kaino as one of your tight forwards to let stuck in when it makes sense. Which circles back to Lochore's comments about predictability.
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Has anyone got player stats for the test? Is be interested to know how many carries Tuipoluto got and what his yardage was.
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@Donsteppa On one occasion, TJ made a dart from the base of the ruck and made a half break. Needed to see more of that.
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@canefan said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@akan004 gotta keep them guessing aye. I noticed a few times where the Irish close to ruck defence rushed up into the first receiver channel, gambling that we wouldn't go there. And most of the time we didn't
Agreed. And apparently the pitch was a bit narrower than the standard dimensions we normally play on, so there was even more of a need for a bit of variation rather than just trying to outflank the rush defence.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
Has anyone got player stats for the test? Is be interested to know how many carries Tuipoluto got and what his yardage was.
These are the stats from Opta for Tuipulotu, Kaino and Barrett for this test:
- Tuipulotu Kaino Scott Barrett Minutes played 58 44 36 Tries - - 1 Metres 5 4 38 Carries 4 5 4 Defenders beaten - - 2 Clean breaks - - 1 Passes 2 2 1 Turnovers conceded 1 2 - Tackles 4 9 1 Missed tackles 1 - - Lineouts won* - - 2 Lineout steals - - 1 - Read (5), Squire (4), Cruden (1)
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@Stargazer Cruden 1? Must've missed that
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4 carries for 5m, and Kaino 5 carries for 4 m....
Is dangerous taking stats in isolation, but those are not good reading for either Kaino or PT, aside from 9 tackles, Kaino didn't seem to do much else.
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3 Lessons New Zealand Can Take Away From Their Defeat To Ireland
Paul Wassell November 7, 2016 2,253 Views
Defeat is never easy for anyone, but it is the bitterest pill to swallow for a rugby nation as proud as New Zealand. However, a first ever loss to Ireland will serve the All Blacks well as they move towards the rest of their end of year campaign and into 2017.
That’s the thing that has come to define New Zealand under Steve Hansen – a defeat is seen not as the start of a downward trend or the beginning of the end of a golden era in the country’s beloved sport, but rather a springboard to even greater success and moving towards even more towering heights.
The surprising 27 – 19 loss to Australia at the ANZ Stadium in Sydney back in August last year saw the All Blacks romp to a 41 – 13 thrashing of the same opposition just a week later at Eden Park and begin the path that saw the team not only win the 2015 World Cup with relative ease but also cruise to a world record eighteen tests in a row.
The 27 – 25 defeat in Johannesburg in 2014 then saw New Zealand go undefeated throughout their northern hemisphere tour and defeat both Australia and the Springboks once more.
So what lessons will they learn this time around? Well a defeat to Ireland is of course unprecedented, but that will only mean the side will find ways to protect the new-found chinks in their previously near-impenetrable armour.
Firstly, the All Blacks normally have enough strength in depth to cope with injury losses, but also avoid trying to shove square pegs into round holes. Yet with the injuries of Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retallick, as well as Luke Romano absent from the squad, coach Hansen resorted to testing blindside Jerome Kaino in the second row. In a lock pairing with the talented but ultimately inexperienced Patrick Tuipulotu the set piece badly misfired, particularly at the lineout and an intelligent and efficient Ireland team made the New Zealanders pay.
Before the match Hansen said on his choice of locks (via Stuff.co.nz
“Jerome is very comfortable in the position, and we just thought it was a big ask for a young fellow [Scott Barrett].”
With Vaea Fifita also available, it will be imperative for the All Blacks to bring a better balance to their pack and ensure a greater clarity of thought at the lineout. Against Italy it may be the perfect chance to test the temperament of Barrett after an impressive performance from the bench against the men in green.
Additionally, the All Blacks will need to learn to better manage the choke tackle – a concept originally created by Ireland and one they used much to their advantage in Chicago. It’s a move that former England defence coach Andy Farrell adapted and adopted with England and one that he used with aplomb against the world’s best team last weekend. Much credit in this regard must be given to the work Ireland prop pairing Jack McGrath and Tadhg Furlong.
As well as this, New Zealand’s usually superb management of both referee and their own discipline was oddly missing against Ireland. Captain Rory Best dealt with French referee Mathieu Raynal very well, whilst as the All Blacks’ resolve slipped so too did Kieran Read’s patience. Joe Moody’s foolish challenge on Robbie Henshaw ultimately cost his side 12 points when they were reduced to 14 men. New Zealand fans will also recall Moody’s awful effort on Argentina’s Guido Petti back in September as well.
New Zealand are no strangers to yellow cards: 49 players have received 73 yellow cards – worse than every northern hemisphere side beside Italy and only beaten by South Africa (99 yellows from 57 players) and Australia (81 from 48). Yet their association with 10 minutes off the park is more to do with cynicism than stupidity. The All Blacks’ stoic approach to discipline has been such a huge part of their success in recent years.
12 penalties conceded to Ireland’s 4 tells you everything you need to know about the game and why Ireland won.
Moving forward then, here are three areas the world’s most consistent team will need to work on. A run out against the Italians will provide Hansen and his coaches with a chance to experiment a little more and get the right combinations for the return to Dublin in two weeks’ time. That match is likely to be yet another defining chapter in the latest incarnation of one of sport’s most iconic teams.
Paul Wassell, Pundit Arena
Heineken Rugby Club celebrates and rewards real supporters who make the game what it is.
Heineken Rugby Club – where rugby meets the world.
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I know I'm not as knowledgeable or as good at analysis as some of the posters on here, but I think the period between 50-65 is good to watch for what happened - not just in NZ turning on the gas as per previous matches this year and scoring two tries in quick succession, but also Ireland's response - they didn't cave completely, instead went back up the other end and got a penalty, then fought it out in midfield, before conceding the next score. From the kick off after that fourth try, at 65th minute, Ireland immediately went into attack mode and Carbery punted a perfect kick into touch again to gain ground. And that pretty much ended the hard-hitting spell from New Zealand, despite the dodgy quick throw by Coles and then Trimble's smash tackle to interrupt the break-out downfield.
Leaving that aside, the re-match will be fascinating to see what the coaches decide to do. Retallick and likely Whitlock will be back, I assume. Equally, Iain Henderson will be fit again, although I don't know whether Schmidt will start him instead of Ryan. Dillane is good off the bench. I assume that Perenara will start given the obvious difference between himself and Smith. Can Conor Murray deliver another 80 minute performance like the last day? Jordi Murphy is out for 6-9 months with an ACL injury, but Schmidt has got vdF, as well as O'Brien, and O'Mahony to come in, if he wants. He probably will leave the front rows along, unless he thinks Ross might be better to start than Furlong. Sexton just had cramp so should be good to go, but Jackson will be available to back him up, and Earls is back from 2-week ban. So there's likely to be changes to both line-ups, with Schmidt probably keeping it to a minimum.
Schmidt has called up 6 additional players to join for the Canada squad, including another 4 uncapped players - Adeolokun, Leavy, Sweetnam and O'Donoghue. He's clearly intent on bringing on newbies this season with nine uncapped players being looked at now. Carbery has had his first taste - wonder who else will get a chance in the remaining three matches, and will there be any in NZ-2?
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@dogmeat said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@rotated In the 2 mins I heard he also laid the blame for the loss at pandering to AIG, said the notion that Hansen was the best AB coach ever was a joke , kept frothing about the Olympics loss, said Tew should resign immediately and hung up on a guy who said he was a bit strong.
I didn't hear his complete show just the starting rant before he went to calls - included in the NZ herald link above.
Again, can hardly argue with many of those points the All Blacks preparation was clearly compromised by the nature of this fixture. Saying Hansen isn't the best we've had isn't any more stupid than saying he is unequivocally the best - which many have been saying.
Devlin amongst others basically has been banging on that this is the best team ever and we succeeded for 8 years in spite of Graham Henry who wasn't much good anyway. Other sections of the NZ media thought Cheika was the best coach in the world 12 months ago. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on something as subjective as that.
The Sevens performance was an absolute abortion, ending Titch's reign in such ignominy is not something that we should look at proudly. The Under 20s were an embarrassment also which he did not mention.
Tew thing seems a bit over the top - but this a drum he has been beating for some time.
It's a subjective thing. He isn't saying this is worse or the same as 1998. He is saying worst since - and in the rant he even said 2007 was worth noting too. I'd add 2001, 2002 and 2009 as contenders. But it all depends on how you weight NZ teams performance in Super Rugby, Sevens program, U20s, womens programs and general off field activities and the various international fixtures.
I don't think he deserves to be browbeaten just for having a contrary opinion - when it at least can be backed up with some evidence.
Again, we've had plenty of media saying this is the best team ever without being called our on it - that to me is a far more dubious claim than Watson's.
Rattue is a numpty though - at least Watson brings some evidence to the table when giving his hot takes.
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@KiwiMurph said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@rotated Also - I think you might be getting your years mixed up. 2001 was when Smith resigned and Mitchell took over (end of year tour) and we failed to get any teams in the Super Rugby playoffs. 2002 was Cantablacks year I think (Crusaders were undefeated Super champions in 2002).
You are right I confused the Smith replacement.
2002 would still be a poor year - the general mood around NZ rugby was historically poor - another Bledisloe loss wasn't great for moral, Mitchell being shit with the media, losing the RWC, pretty woeful EOYT that England loss had many similarities to this Irish one.
2009 was poor too with losses to France at home, then three on the trot against the Boks - but when viewed as a season Marsielle kind of saved the season and gave a clear sign that things were on the right track.
So Watson is probably wrong - with 2007 (which he noted), 2002 and 2009 being worse seasons. But this isn't up there with out best of the pro era either IMO (96, 97, 05, 06, 11, 13, 15).
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@Stargazer cheers for posting those but the very first stat doesn't appear accurate. I'm sure PT was subbed for Savea. Barrett finished the test with Squire at lock wasn't it. Then when Moala went off Savea moved to the backs and Codie Taylor to blindside.
Overall though, PT didn't seem to be in the game at all from watching it live. Thus far he has been a real spark off the bench and would probably put in more carries (for more metres) in his more usual role playing for 20 minutes.
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@ACT-Crusader You're absolutely right about PT not playing the whole game. I couldn't see the number of minutes in the stats until I enlarged my screen to over 200% because it's in a small graphic and I forgot to change it. I'll change it now.
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@ACT-Crusader This is the right graph with the position changes and subs during the test:
So when Cruden came on, BBarrett went to fullback, BSmith to the right wing and Naholo left the field.
But, when Moala got off injured, BSmith moved to 13, Ardie moved to the right wing and Taylor replaced him at 6 (where Ardie had entered the field earlier when Tuipulotu was subbed off). When Tuipulotu went off, Read moved to lock and Squire to 8.Pretty crazy.
