Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown & Dublin Duel
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@dogmeat said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@rotated In the 2 mins I heard he also laid the blame for the loss at pandering to AIG, said the notion that Hansen was the best AB coach ever was a joke , kept frothing about the Olympics loss, said Tew should resign immediately and hung up on a guy who said he was a bit strong.
I didn't hear his complete show just the starting rant before he went to calls - included in the NZ herald link above.
Again, can hardly argue with many of those points the All Blacks preparation was clearly compromised by the nature of this fixture. Saying Hansen isn't the best we've had isn't any more stupid than saying he is unequivocally the best - which many have been saying.
Devlin amongst others basically has been banging on that this is the best team ever and we succeeded for 8 years in spite of Graham Henry who wasn't much good anyway. Other sections of the NZ media thought Cheika was the best coach in the world 12 months ago. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on something as subjective as that.
The Sevens performance was an absolute abortion, ending Titch's reign in such ignominy is not something that we should look at proudly. The Under 20s were an embarrassment also which he did not mention.
Tew thing seems a bit over the top - but this a drum he has been beating for some time.
It's a subjective thing. He isn't saying this is worse or the same as 1998. He is saying worst since - and in the rant he even said 2007 was worth noting too. I'd add 2001, 2002 and 2009 as contenders. But it all depends on how you weight NZ teams performance in Super Rugby, Sevens program, U20s, womens programs and general off field activities and the various international fixtures.
I don't think he deserves to be browbeaten just for having a contrary opinion - when it at least can be backed up with some evidence.
Again, we've had plenty of media saying this is the best team ever without being called our on it - that to me is a far more dubious claim than Watson's.
Rattue is a numpty though - at least Watson brings some evidence to the table when giving his hot takes.
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@KiwiMurph said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@rotated Also - I think you might be getting your years mixed up. 2001 was when Smith resigned and Mitchell took over (end of year tour) and we failed to get any teams in the Super Rugby playoffs. 2002 was Cantablacks year I think (Crusaders were undefeated Super champions in 2002).
You are right I confused the Smith replacement.
2002 would still be a poor year - the general mood around NZ rugby was historically poor - another Bledisloe loss wasn't great for moral, Mitchell being shit with the media, losing the RWC, pretty woeful EOYT that England loss had many similarities to this Irish one.
2009 was poor too with losses to France at home, then three on the trot against the Boks - but when viewed as a season Marsielle kind of saved the season and gave a clear sign that things were on the right track.
So Watson is probably wrong - with 2007 (which he noted), 2002 and 2009 being worse seasons. But this isn't up there with out best of the pro era either IMO (96, 97, 05, 06, 11, 13, 15).
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@Stargazer cheers for posting those but the very first stat doesn't appear accurate. I'm sure PT was subbed for Savea. Barrett finished the test with Squire at lock wasn't it. Then when Moala went off Savea moved to the backs and Codie Taylor to blindside.
Overall though, PT didn't seem to be in the game at all from watching it live. Thus far he has been a real spark off the bench and would probably put in more carries (for more metres) in his more usual role playing for 20 minutes.
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@ACT-Crusader You're absolutely right about PT not playing the whole game. I couldn't see the number of minutes in the stats until I enlarged my screen to over 200% because it's in a small graphic and I forgot to change it. I'll change it now.
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@ACT-Crusader This is the right graph with the position changes and subs during the test:
So when Cruden came on, BBarrett went to fullback, BSmith to the right wing and Naholo left the field.
But, when Moala got off injured, BSmith moved to 13, Ardie moved to the right wing and Taylor replaced him at 6 (where Ardie had entered the field earlier when Tuipulotu was subbed off). When Tuipulotu went off, Read moved to lock and Squire to 8.Pretty crazy.
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@Pot-Hale said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
I know I'm not as knowledgeable or as good at analysis as some of the posters on here, but I think the period between 50-65 is good to watch for what happened - not just in NZ turning on the gas as per previous matches this year and scoring two tries in quick succession, but also Ireland's response - they didn't cave completely, instead went back up the other end and got a penalty, then fought it out in midfield, before conceding the next score. From the kick off after that fourth try, at 65th minute, Ireland immediately went into attack mode and Carbery punted a perfect kick into touch again to gain ground. And that pretty much ended the hard-hitting spell from New Zealand, despite the dodgy quick throw by Coles and then Trimble's smash tackle to interrupt the break-out downfield.
Agree completely, the ABs came at them hard and instead of buckling they made some smart plays in the final 10 - 15 minutes to hang onto the lead. Most other sides would have ended up losing by 10 - 15 points IMO - it was a great performance and they played the full 80 which is bare minimum to beat the ABs.
The exit play at the end to spin it to the winger to gain 10 - 15 metres before punting the ball into our 22 was very clever. Savea having a brain fart obviously exasperated the issue for us but it was smart play under pressure from Ireland.
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@rotated assuming you listen to Watson, did he also provide the equivalent 7's, age group and womens results from the corresponding years he is saying are making this year so poor?
While 7s is part of NZR, it is a totally different sport and short of telling players they had no choice on which version to play, I cant see things having been any different, so cant really include it as a comparitive measure, in fact it was more in line back in those days you probably could make valid comparisons.
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forgetting the record and all that , Im hoping we will look back on this game as a turning point at some stage , our losses over the last decade have been a bit like that , all of them seem to get remembered as moments to learn from if you listen to guys like Richie talk .
Since the WC , we have been fantastic, but its all been pretty much downhill ,
Never been a fan of that saying we need a loss , but maybe when looking at the bigger picture of the 2019 WC , this will benefit us more than running over the top of another team
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It's a bit worrying that Whitelock and BBBT are apparently the only locks capable of playing 80 minutes. Patrick T was barely used during the RC and as far as I know has never played 80 minutes in a test. I still find the decision to choose Kaino at lock pretty stupid. I get that Barrett is young, but he is actually a lock and has played in the premier SH comp for a couple of years now. We have to trust that these guys can do the job, rather than chuck in a guy out of position. What's weird is that Hanson gave poor Broadhurst his début against the Boks in South Africa.
The graph above shows that it really was a perfect storm of shit that occurred in Chicago. They were all over the show at the end in terms of positions. Perhaps with fewer injuries they would have won comfortably in the end. But they should never have let the score blow out like they did in the first half.
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@rotated said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
If you actually listened to Watson's rant it is far from bait. His key points were:
- The ABs will destroy Ireland in Dublin and learn from their mistakes.
- This loss will have a positive impact on the ABs performance against the Lions next year as they will learn from their mistakes.
- The winning streak title is dubious given many victories happened last season with a distinctly different side.
- If you factor in the Olympics (very important) - this was the worst year for the NZRU since 1998.
I would agree with all those statements except 2002 was clearly worse with the Smith resignation (and Mitchell/Deans appointment), woeful on field performance, Cantablacks caps and the subhosting debacle.
I don't find his opinion any more stupid than the "best of all time" nonsense that was getting thrown around earlier in the season by many pundits.
It's not the worse year since 1998. Not even close. I think most NZ rugby fans had clinical depression after that 1998 season. NZ rugby is on a high and is more and more well-viewed, helped by our gracious response to defeat. I'm glad we don't have a coach like Woodward, Cheika or Gatland who would be a PR disaster for NZ. I hope Gatland never coaches in NZ again at professional level - you can't come in and piss everywhere in the media, then expect the fans to open their arms. Wales were awful in the weekend, anyway.
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@akan004 said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@Rapido You are missing the point. I was having a go at Veitch for being ok about the loss. I honestly don't give a rats arse about whether or not it was a good result for world rugby. From a NZ rugby perspective, it was a bad result.
I think you're being awfully precious. I actually think it was a blessing in disguise, the coaches now have to earn their crust, and it will prepare us better for the Lions and the English tests. We will learn heaps from that loss, and I would rather it was Ireland, than a series lost to the Lions...or England stopping our winning run...
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Comparisons with 1998? If TSF existed that year the Internet would have melted down.
And count me in as precious (and sour and bitter) for being as yet unwilling/unable to care about the supposed wider benefits to world rugby of the All Blacks losing to Ireland
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@Donsteppa said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
Comparisons with 1998? If TSF existed that year the Internet would have melted down.
And count me in as precious (and sour and bitter) for being as yet unwilling/unable to care about the supposed wider benefits to world rugby of the All Blacks losing to Ireland
For a start I am now highly anticipating the return clash. Rather than (yawn) NZ running in a 45-10 scoreline in Chicago, we now have to make sure we don't lose twice in a row, which I definitely would not accept nor be happy about.
For once reason is actually ok imo
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/86218037/mark-reason-holy-joe-guns-down-the-all-blacks
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@Billy-Tell still refuse to click on that and read it, he, like his mate Twattue , most of the time they are such cock gobblers, that many people dont bother with them, and will miss the rare decent article they might write.
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@taniwharugby said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@rotated assuming you listen to Watson, did he also provide the equivalent 7's, age group and womens results from the corresponding years he is saying are making this year so poor?
While 7s is part of NZR, it is a totally different sport and short of telling players they had no choice on which version to play, I cant see things having been any different, so cant really include it as a comparitive measure, in fact it was more in line back in those days you probably could make valid comparisons.
His point seemed to be that this year they sacrificed the 7s program to benefit the All Blacks. So if you are making that sacrifice (i.e. Olympics) then you would want a better performance that the first loss to Ireland. We had that debate ages ago so not worth going over it again, but that was his point.
I don't make a habit of listening to Watson but if he says something noteworthy i'll listen on the RS website.
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@rotated so thats 2016 covered off, what was the 7s program in 1998 like to give it the same context, afterall, if he is trying to use the whole NZR performance as his yardstick.
He isnt comparing apples with apples and is just on his soap box as usual, I liken him to the likes of Twattue, Treason and even Hone Harawaira, they talk so much BS, when they actually make valid points they are often simply dismissed, ignored or even simply missed because they talk so much shit they turn into white noise.
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@rotated said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@rotated assuming you listen to Watson, did he also provide the equivalent 7's, age group and womens results from the corresponding years he is saying are making this year so poor?
While 7s is part of NZR, it is a totally different sport and short of telling players they had no choice on which version to play, I cant see things having been any different, so cant really include it as a comparitive measure, in fact it was more in line back in those days you probably could make valid comparisons.
His point seemed to be that this year they sacrificed the 7s program to benefit the All Blacks. So if you are making that sacrifice (i.e. Olympics) then you would want a better performance that the first loss to Ireland. We had that debate ages ago so not worth going over it again, but that was his point.
I don't make a habit of listening to Watson but if he says something noteworthy i'll listen on the RS website.
Are you serious? Our average winning margin in TRC was 30 fucking points. You just cannot do any better then that. After losing the core of our team no less. It's been an incredible season.
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@No-Quarter said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@rotated said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@rotated assuming you listen to Watson, did he also provide the equivalent 7's, age group and womens results from the corresponding years he is saying are making this year so poor?
While 7s is part of NZR, it is a totally different sport and short of telling players they had no choice on which version to play, I cant see things having been any different, so cant really include it as a comparitive measure, in fact it was more in line back in those days you probably could make valid comparisons.
His point seemed to be that this year they sacrificed the 7s program to benefit the All Blacks. So if you are making that sacrifice (i.e. Olympics) then you would want a better performance that the first loss to Ireland. We had that debate ages ago so not worth going over it again, but that was his point.
I don't make a habit of listening to Watson but if he says something noteworthy i'll listen on the RS website.
Are you serious? Our average winning margin in TRC was 30 fucking points. You just cannot do any better then that. After losing the core of our team no less. It's been an incredible season.
And losing a bunch of core players for this game, along with the coaching panel deciding to have a team wide re-shuffle at the same time. We were guilty of underestimating the Irish but it doesn't detract from the season as a whole. So far anyway, let's reassess in a month
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@ACT-Crusader said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
@Donsteppa said in Ireland v NZ - Chicago Showdown:
"What does a pick and go achieve"? Done every now and then it will stop defenders from fanning out quite as quickly. It might even find out whether a defender, say Aaron Smith, is occassionally too quick to drift out and not watch the inside channel...
If you look at Ireland's defence it had plenty of players around the ruck.
They were one-on-one coverage out wide and that's why we tried to move it quickly there with the little ball we had. We got yards out wide on occasions because of it but then made errors or turned it over.
I was impressed with how well the Irish wingers scrambled.
I agree but I also don't think it's taking anything away from the Irish performance to note that the field was 5 metres narrower than they will be in Dublin
This helped not only the scrambling defence but also helped them pin us in the corners as their touch finders had greater range
