All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
But Pocock would be shirking the other duties we expect of Cane, Todd and Ardie while tracking around looking for turnover opportunities and getting in the way of the backs. He also hasn't displayed the handling skills we expect from our players.
Whilst I don't think his form has been as good as previous seasons, I'm fairly certain that Pocock has been the leading tackler for the Wallabies this season (when he's played).
One of the criticisms with the Hooper/Pocock combo is more that Pocock has been doing more openside work ie high tackle rate and winning penalties/turnovers, whereas Hooper has been more out in the backline.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@rotated said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
But Pocock would be shirking the other duties we expect of Cane, Todd and Ardie while tracking around looking for turnover opportunities and getting in the way of the backs. He also hasn't displayed the handling skills we expect from our players.
100%. He would be the fourth Wallabies loose forward I would look at at test level in a combined team. So far down the pecking order in terms of a test level skill that I'd take Adam Thomson back ahead of him even at this point.
At Super Rugby I would honestly consider taking him over some of our starters though - his game suits that lower level much better.
no offense, but this is such a load of nz-centric shit. ask the saffas at the 2011 world cup if his game that day wasn't suited to test rugby. did alright in the last WC too, in y'know, tests. i was a thomson fan, think he was used poorly by the ABs, but if you think he ever dominated a test the way pocock has you are dreaming.
just because he is playing in shit teams, has a different skillset to our guys, and is a cock doesn't mean he's a poor player. shirking the duties we expect of savea/cane/todd? all those guys play very different games themselves.Which part of "doesn't fit into the AB way of play" didn't you get?
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@Crucial but is the AB way of playing cane, savea or todd? is it jones, kronfeld, or mccaw? is it buck shelford or zinzan? is it dane coles or keven mealamu? nonu or mauger? marshall or aaron smith? thorn or williams etc etc.
what i see is a guy who can get more turnovers than anyone else - and i think everyone can see what our guys can do with turnover ball. sticking pocock in the ABs wouldn't give us a weak lineout, or a lack of ball-carriers, or any other negative that couldn't be covered by the rest of the pack. -
@reprobate so why dont we play a gameplan that targets getting as many turnovers as possible? We know Cane, Todd and Savea can get them, so why dont we have a gameplan that focuses on them winning t/o ball?
Richie used to get alot, but he and we changed the way we play.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@reprobate so why dont we play a gameplan that targets getting as many turnovers as possible? We know Cane, Todd and Savea can get them, so why dont we have a gameplan that focuses on them winning t/o ball?
Exactly. Because our style of play is to only go for turnovers when the opportunity presents with a high chance of success., and we share the job around.
ACTC mentions that Pocock has been topping the tackle count this year. Fair enough, I haven't watched the Wallabies play much (I don't have the spare time to watch shit rugby). How's his turnover stats compared to previous years?
His turnover 'prowess' comes from making that aspect his top priority. He often hovers behind play with no aim other than looking for the turnover.
I can't find the stats for this year but in last years TRC Pocock's tackle count was below Read, McCaw, Retallick, DeJager, Burger and Etzebeth and marginally above Hooper.As for the questions regarding the 'AB style' what a meant was an emphasis on all round skills and core duties. The ABs obviously have tackling up top in a loose forwards core duties. Pocock can tackle fine but he can't rack up the tackle count AND be the turnover king. That is why in my eyes he has always been inferior to George Smith.
Yep. he's a good player and would ale an AB squad. But, like Ardie, he would be told to focus on core duties first and foremost which would negate the very aspect of his game that Reprobate wants him in the team for.
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@taniwharugby but with McCaw we did get turnovers. But he also had Hore, Read, Rodders, JC, Mealamu getting them as well.
Pocock has predominantly played a Lone Ranger until Fardy came along and that has seen Pocock evolve his game. That has been particularly evident at the Brumbies with more ball handling and link play in attack.
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@taniwharugby we do have guys that can get turnovers, but we don't have anyone nearly as good at it as pocock. none of them are anywhere near as strong over the ball as he is. i just don't buy the 'we could do that if we wanted to' argument. why would hanson design a gameplan around getting breakdown turnovers if we're 2nd rate at it?
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@Crucial he's top of the turnover stats this year too.
i do recognise that he lacks the ball skills we are used to having in a 7, but what he adds is something we don't have. at present i'd pick cane ahead of him, but not savea or todd.
i would say that both pocock and savea have such different skillsets to cane that they would be better for certain gameplans / oppositions. best like for like replacement for cane would be todd. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@taniwharugby we do have guys that can get turnovers, but we don't have anyone nearly as good at it as pocock. none of them are anywhere near as strong over the ball as he is. i just don't buy the 'we could do that if we wanted to' argument. why would hanson design a gameplan around getting breakdown turnovers if we're 2nd rate at it?
But we aren't second rate. Cane is immensely strong over the ball as is Ardie. What our coaches have done though is weigh up the value that comes from turnover hunting at the expense of tackling against giving all players the skill set to take the opportunity if it arises.
Pocock's turnover skills have rarely won them games. The 2011 RWC is an obvious argument against that statement but he also got away with murder that night. He was kneeling on nearly every ruck. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Crucial he's top of the turnover stats this year too.
For just Oz or for the whole comp?
If just for Oz then if he is topping the tackles as well for them then he has certainly changed his style.
If for the comp then it kind of backs up why the ABs don't go all out to jackal at the tackle. It doesn't win games as much as playing their way.
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@Crucial bro, compared to pocock those guys are 2nd rate at that one skill. they are far better than him in other areas, where he is 2nd (probably 3rd) rate, but that's just a fact as far as i'm concerned.
i think it was you that mentioned part of tana's contribution to nz rugby was having breakdown skills in a midfielder. i'm in total agreement about that, and i think that the ABs main advantage over other teams is the vision and handling skills of our tight forwards - i.e. i think everyone can do everything is a great approach - but i do think pocock has had a major impact on the aussies winning games - very frequently he has saved them points by turning over opposition attacking ball. once they have it of course they don't have a clue what to do with it, but that's not his fault. -
I guess the only way we would know for sure is if he played for us and we'd see how the coaches asked him to play.
I still think he is no better than an adequate international flanker with a low centre of gravity which he uses for turnovers. Yes, I would probably pick him ahead of Todd but Ardie's wider skill set would beat him out and Cane easily outranks him.
He's a one trick pony in my eyes, although very good at that one trick. -
I don't have the stats in front of me, but I presume there isn't much of a difference between the turnovers won stat on a team basis. For that very reason I don't see why you would even consider foregoing a lineout option and ball-runner for someone who might, on a good day, get you a couple of more turnovers than the other team. IMHO the benefits just don't outweigh the costs, particularly for a team like the abs.
Pocock has clearly got the memo and is trying to improve his attacking game but the results (particularly against SA) were painful to watch.
Nope Im happy to win a few less turnovers if it means my no. 7 can run, break tackles and pass, i.e. actually represent a viable attacking threat.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel cane/savea/todd have won one lineout between them so far this tournament. pocock's in no way a well-rounded player, but if you have our locks, read and kaino, then 7 doesn't need to be a lineout option. this is kinda where my opinion differs - cost vs benefit - would the costs really effect us that much? we've got no shortage of ball runners either, particularly once the bench gets involved.
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@reprobate so we'd win more games if we had Pocock
I think the balance we have works very well for us.
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@ACT-Crusader but his play at super level isnt what is being discussed is it?
I dont think his trick is as effective at International level without the other strings, his one trick seems easy enough to nullify (famous last words and all)
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@reprobate so we'd win more games if we had Pocock
Just think. If we had Pocock we would already have the tier one record because we would have a winning record above 100%
Awesome.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Rancid-Schnitzel cane/savea/todd have won one lineout between them so far this tournament. pocock's in no way a well-rounded player, but if you have our locks, read and kaino, then 7 doesn't need to be a lineout option. this is kinda where my opinion differs - cost vs benefit - would the costs really effect us that much? we've got no shortage of ball runners either, particularly once the bench gets involved.
IIRC Retallick is used very sparingly at lineout time as well. It's a massive benefit having that extra lineout option even if he is rarely used.
I just don't see the upside here. The number of turnovers won with him vs the number won by the team as whole without him would be negligible. So you win maybe a couple more turnovers a game and sacrifice a lineout option and any attacking threat.
IMHO that's a really shit trade off.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Rancid-Schnitzel cane/savea/todd have won one lineout between them so far this tournament. pocock's in no way a well-rounded player, but if you have our locks, read and kaino, then 7 doesn't need to be a lineout option. this is kinda where my opinion differs - cost vs benefit - would the costs really effect us that much? we've got no shortage of ball runners either, particularly once the bench gets involved.
Worth noting that Pocock has been playing at 8 as part of poopah so should be compared to lineout takes by Read. But that points more to the impact of playing him and Hoopah together.
As Rancid said I would be interested on the overall team turnover stats to see if he is making a difference to the overall stats or whether he is just getting all of them.
IMO his work with the ball is a serious weakness not just 'average'. Owen Franks has better ball skills FFS. That is a serious black mark.
