All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.
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I dont know if Folau is struggling or if Cheika doesn't know how to unleash him.
NB read that Cane is hopeful but probably 40:60. -
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
But Pocock would be shirking the other duties we expect of Cane, Todd and Ardie while tracking around looking for turnover opportunities and getting in the way of the backs. He also hasn't displayed the handling skills we expect from our players.
100%. He would be the fourth Wallabies loose forward I would look at at test level in a combined team. So far down the pecking order in terms of a test level skill that I'd take Adam Thomson back ahead of him even at this point.
At Super Rugby I would honestly consider taking him over some of our starters though - his game suits that lower level much better.
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@booboo said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
Feeling very 2003 ... 😯
Biggest weakness was goal kicking there too, although Robbie/Mitch let that dictate selection to our overall games detriment.
Key difference.
Even if you could make the argument player vs player we were superior in all 15 positions (assuming when Fitzy made the comment he expected Umaga to match up against Mortlock - not MacDonald) we didn't have a clear dominance in any of the key positions Greegan/Larkham was an experienced nexus, Flatley/Mortlock was a serviceable midfield with superior goalkicking, Waugh/Smith/Lyons was equally as effective as Collins/McCaw/Thorne who hadn't quite matured yet. Mealamu was still young and Cannon was no mug. Secretly Aussie had a pretty clear advantage on the bench considering DC didn't make it on - Kelleher and to a lesser extent Holah were the only ones who promised any spark off the bench going into it.
So even if on paper we gave the nod in all those positions based on our awesome 2003 form at S12 and 3N level it wasn't unthinkable that those units couldn't beat us on their day (and not even on their day - it's not like Greegan/Larkham hadn't bossed around Marshall/Mehrts/Spencer as much as the reverse over the previous 5 years).
Now - to see our halves and loosies get soundly outplayed would be a huge shock surely? It was such a milestone in Bledisloe I last year that it has formed the entire basis of Cheika's loose forward selection going forward. To see Cooper or Foley soundly dominate Barrett would be one for the ages.
In hindsight we got very carried away with that 50 point game in Sydney, I don't think we are getting carried away with the 50 point game in Durban this time.
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@NTA said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
Was just reading at GAGR that the points difference in the world rankings is so great that the ABs can't gain anything on a win, and the Wallabies can't move down for a loss.
Literally nothing to lose
Except what's left of our dignity
So literally nothing to lose.
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@rotated said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
But Pocock would be shirking the other duties we expect of Cane, Todd and Ardie while tracking around looking for turnover opportunities and getting in the way of the backs. He also hasn't displayed the handling skills we expect from our players.
100%. He would be the fourth Wallabies loose forward I would look at at test level in a combined team. So far down the pecking order in terms of a test level skill that I'd take Adam Thomson back ahead of him even at this point.
At Super Rugby I would honestly consider taking him over some of our starters though - his game suits that lower level much better.
no offense, but this is such a load of nz-centric shit. ask the saffas at the 2011 world cup if his game that day wasn't suited to test rugby. did alright in the last WC too, in y'know, tests. i was a thomson fan, think he was used poorly by the ABs, but if you think he ever dominated a test the way pocock has you are dreaming.
just because he is playing in shit teams, has a different skillset to our guys, and is a cock doesn't mean he's a poor player. shirking the duties we expect of savea/cane/todd? all those guys play very different games themselves. -
Not sure how saying I would take 3 other Aussie loosies over Pocock is NZ centric?
He is excellent at exploiting weakness and I think that is why Super Rugby suits him so well - teams are fractured, with the nature of the competition means specific game planning is often done on a trans-Atlantic flight - most of all you don't have the cattle to execute even the most basic tactic at times.
At test level, where it is best on best and the talent pool deep - offering absolutely nothing with ball in hand, at the lineout or as a non-pilfering support player at the ruck is just not acceptable these days.
I liken it a bit to Daniel Vettori's test bowling - his control and skill was no different than in the limited overs games - but his skill set didn't translate and batsman could just sit on him. He may well have had the best control of any spinner of his generation - but the brand of his game did not suit the times, nor the game itself really. I honestly doubt Pocock is talked about in depth during the game planning sessions this week, they know they just have to make sure he makes (and misses) plenty of tackles through his channel and everything else is nullified. He has no other weapon.
He was great in that QF. This is the one where his opposite Brussow was carted off in the first 5 minutes?
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
But Pocock would be shirking the other duties we expect of Cane, Todd and Ardie while tracking around looking for turnover opportunities and getting in the way of the backs. He also hasn't displayed the handling skills we expect from our players.
Whilst I don't think his form has been as good as previous seasons, I'm fairly certain that Pocock has been the leading tackler for the Wallabies this season (when he's played).
One of the criticisms with the Hooper/Pocock combo is more that Pocock has been doing more openside work ie high tackle rate and winning penalties/turnovers, whereas Hooper has been more out in the backline.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@rotated said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
But Pocock would be shirking the other duties we expect of Cane, Todd and Ardie while tracking around looking for turnover opportunities and getting in the way of the backs. He also hasn't displayed the handling skills we expect from our players.
100%. He would be the fourth Wallabies loose forward I would look at at test level in a combined team. So far down the pecking order in terms of a test level skill that I'd take Adam Thomson back ahead of him even at this point.
At Super Rugby I would honestly consider taking him over some of our starters though - his game suits that lower level much better.
no offense, but this is such a load of nz-centric shit. ask the saffas at the 2011 world cup if his game that day wasn't suited to test rugby. did alright in the last WC too, in y'know, tests. i was a thomson fan, think he was used poorly by the ABs, but if you think he ever dominated a test the way pocock has you are dreaming.
just because he is playing in shit teams, has a different skillset to our guys, and is a cock doesn't mean he's a poor player. shirking the duties we expect of savea/cane/todd? all those guys play very different games themselves.Which part of "doesn't fit into the AB way of play" didn't you get?
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@Crucial but is the AB way of playing cane, savea or todd? is it jones, kronfeld, or mccaw? is it buck shelford or zinzan? is it dane coles or keven mealamu? nonu or mauger? marshall or aaron smith? thorn or williams etc etc.
what i see is a guy who can get more turnovers than anyone else - and i think everyone can see what our guys can do with turnover ball. sticking pocock in the ABs wouldn't give us a weak lineout, or a lack of ball-carriers, or any other negative that couldn't be covered by the rest of the pack. -
@reprobate so why dont we play a gameplan that targets getting as many turnovers as possible? We know Cane, Todd and Savea can get them, so why dont we have a gameplan that focuses on them winning t/o ball?
Richie used to get alot, but he and we changed the way we play.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@reprobate so why dont we play a gameplan that targets getting as many turnovers as possible? We know Cane, Todd and Savea can get them, so why dont we have a gameplan that focuses on them winning t/o ball?
Exactly. Because our style of play is to only go for turnovers when the opportunity presents with a high chance of success., and we share the job around.
ACTC mentions that Pocock has been topping the tackle count this year. Fair enough, I haven't watched the Wallabies play much (I don't have the spare time to watch shit rugby). How's his turnover stats compared to previous years?
His turnover 'prowess' comes from making that aspect his top priority. He often hovers behind play with no aim other than looking for the turnover.
I can't find the stats for this year but in last years TRC Pocock's tackle count was below Read, McCaw, Retallick, DeJager, Burger and Etzebeth and marginally above Hooper.As for the questions regarding the 'AB style' what a meant was an emphasis on all round skills and core duties. The ABs obviously have tackling up top in a loose forwards core duties. Pocock can tackle fine but he can't rack up the tackle count AND be the turnover king. That is why in my eyes he has always been inferior to George Smith.
Yep. he's a good player and would ale an AB squad. But, like Ardie, he would be told to focus on core duties first and foremost which would negate the very aspect of his game that Reprobate wants him in the team for.
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@taniwharugby but with McCaw we did get turnovers. But he also had Hore, Read, Rodders, JC, Mealamu getting them as well.
Pocock has predominantly played a Lone Ranger until Fardy came along and that has seen Pocock evolve his game. That has been particularly evident at the Brumbies with more ball handling and link play in attack.
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@taniwharugby we do have guys that can get turnovers, but we don't have anyone nearly as good at it as pocock. none of them are anywhere near as strong over the ball as he is. i just don't buy the 'we could do that if we wanted to' argument. why would hanson design a gameplan around getting breakdown turnovers if we're 2nd rate at it?
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@Crucial he's top of the turnover stats this year too.
i do recognise that he lacks the ball skills we are used to having in a 7, but what he adds is something we don't have. at present i'd pick cane ahead of him, but not savea or todd.
i would say that both pocock and savea have such different skillsets to cane that they would be better for certain gameplans / oppositions. best like for like replacement for cane would be todd. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@taniwharugby we do have guys that can get turnovers, but we don't have anyone nearly as good at it as pocock. none of them are anywhere near as strong over the ball as he is. i just don't buy the 'we could do that if we wanted to' argument. why would hanson design a gameplan around getting breakdown turnovers if we're 2nd rate at it?
But we aren't second rate. Cane is immensely strong over the ball as is Ardie. What our coaches have done though is weigh up the value that comes from turnover hunting at the expense of tackling against giving all players the skill set to take the opportunity if it arises.
Pocock's turnover skills have rarely won them games. The 2011 RWC is an obvious argument against that statement but he also got away with murder that night. He was kneeling on nearly every ruck. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Crucial he's top of the turnover stats this year too.
For just Oz or for the whole comp?
If just for Oz then if he is topping the tackles as well for them then he has certainly changed his style.
If for the comp then it kind of backs up why the ABs don't go all out to jackal at the tackle. It doesn't win games as much as playing their way.
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@Crucial bro, compared to pocock those guys are 2nd rate at that one skill. they are far better than him in other areas, where he is 2nd (probably 3rd) rate, but that's just a fact as far as i'm concerned.
i think it was you that mentioned part of tana's contribution to nz rugby was having breakdown skills in a midfielder. i'm in total agreement about that, and i think that the ABs main advantage over other teams is the vision and handling skills of our tight forwards - i.e. i think everyone can do everything is a great approach - but i do think pocock has had a major impact on the aussies winning games - very frequently he has saved them points by turning over opposition attacking ball. once they have it of course they don't have a clue what to do with it, but that's not his fault. -
I guess the only way we would know for sure is if he played for us and we'd see how the coaches asked him to play.
I still think he is no better than an adequate international flanker with a low centre of gravity which he uses for turnovers. Yes, I would probably pick him ahead of Todd but Ardie's wider skill set would beat him out and Cane easily outranks him.
He's a one trick pony in my eyes, although very good at that one trick.
