All Blacks 2025
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@HugeCarrot2 said in All Blacks 2025:
I remember thinking at his peak that I'd actually pick him over Jonah at his peak, because he was almost as good on attack, particularly when you account for the fact Jonah was playing against some very light defenders in the backs in the mid 90s. Savea was clearly better at other aspects of the game as Jonah wasn't much of a defender nor had the same general workrate. Unfortunately Savea's peak was short even by the standards of attacking wings.
Yeah I can remember thinking the same at the time, he really became a complete player and was single handedly destroying teams for us like Lomu did. The French performance stands out as it was at the RWC and we were all really nervous about what appeared a pretty good French team, but he had other performances like that.
Sports scientists need to study players like him that were dominant for a short time then just fell away quite dramatically despite age still appearing to be on their side. If he had held that peak for any period of time he would have broken our try scoring records easily.
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@HugeCarrot2 said in All Blacks 2025:
I remember thinking at his peak that I'd actually pick him over Jonah at his peak, because he was almost as good on attack, particularly when you account for the fact Jonah was playing against some very light defenders in the backs in the mid 90s. Savea was clearly better at other aspects of the game as Jonah wasn't much of a defender nor had the same general workrate. Unfortunately Savea's peak was short even by the standards of attacking wings.
Get off the drugs
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t know why people can’t comprehend that just picking 15 new players isn’t a good idea
Nice straw man argument. Who has suggested 15 new players?
My point more generally, is in my opinion, people are going overboard. The All Blacks issues are personnel problems, particularly in the loose forwards. We lack a big enforcer… we are crying out for a player like Harry Wilson. We lack an elite first five… McKenzie isn’t that, but he is probably the best we have - there’s no depth either.
We’re talking about fine margins here, and at the moment we don’t have the solutions… switching Ioane for Billy Proctor for example, in my opinion, wouldn’t make a difference, but if it did, it would be minimal.
Trying new players in certain positions probably makes us worse - not better.
Barring injuries, of the ABs XV who played France, is there anyone obvious who moves the needle on that team? Ruben Love is another example here. Might he be a good option if Jordan is to play on the wing? Maybe, but he hasn’t shown a level at Super Rugby to suggest he is a world-beater.
I couldn't disagree with this post more. We absolutely have the personnel, our problems are poor game plans and poor on-field decision making, which is a coaching problem. We could have beaten SA in SA, and France in France, but we threw those games away with poor tactics and decisions.
Did we? Or were we just beaten by better sides away from home? The All Blacks have come back to the pack having been clear for years, because our top-end talent is not as superior as it once was. Where 10 year ago a World XV would probably include 8 or 9 ABs, it might now includes 3 or 4, so naturally we aren't going to win every game. Poor on-field decision making (particularly discipline) is an example of these players not being quite as good.
You can rate McKenzie all you like, but he is not the standard of elite 10 that has been the hallmark of the ABs. This version of DMac doesn't even make the squad for the 2015 RWC IMO. I'm not suggesting this makes him bad, but the ABs used to win a lot of games because we had a freak at 10 who could dig us out of holes.
You can rate Akira Ioane all you like, but he is not the same level as a Jerome Kaino or even Liam Squire for those couple of seasons around the Lions Tour.
And can people make their minds up on whether they rate Rieko? He is both really good and really shit it seems, is it tactics, or is it his ability?
No chance there are 3-4 ABs in a World XV. I am not even sure there is one.
Considering Colin Slade was the 3rd 10 in that squad, i am pretty sure DMac is on the plane.
Liam Squire was just another in a long line of average blindsides who made a name for himself beating up the Aussies and the shit versions of Argentina.
But i agree with your overall point, we can't keep looking at 2015. That is arguably the single greatest national team of all time, packed with players who are not only in the conversation for a NZ all-time XV, but an anywhere all-time XV (and oh look, South Africa still took us to the brink). Other teams have better players now.
That doesn't excuse the quality of play we put on last year, or the names that are repeatedly selected despite proving themselves to be not up to standard, simply because the next cab off the rank is not a perfect player with zero flaws in their game.
And whoever the attack coach is can get in the bin.According to World Rugby there are three All Blacks in their 2024 dream team - Lomax, DMac and Jordan - and two other NZers Gibson-Park and James Lowe.
Three of my Mako boys - sounds about right!
DMac is an interesting discussion, because he seems to me pretty similar to Mo'unga. Good runner, decent distributor, brave but small defender, decent line-kicker, and decent goal-kicker. If Razor can't have Richie, I'd think Damien is a pretty decent substitute and I don't really get why he slipped behind Beaudie at the end of the season. I'd be pretty happy with him as our number 1, Beaudie to back him up, Jacombe in development, and the prospect of Richie coming back next year to compete for the spot. I'm not particularly uncomfortable with BB as number one (he's going well this year), but I don't really understand it. I doubt anyone else has much better options at first five.
Agree - we're wasting our time looking back at how good the 2015 ABs were - but, I will add - If McCaw got red carded after 25 minutes vs France in 2011, SA in 2015 and (given the points we conceded while Ben Smith was in the bin) Oz in 2015, we probably don't win any of those games. If Sammy doesn't get red carded in 2023 we probably win.
I agree with all you say there, well apart from Richie being a brave defender
Perhaps they felt DMac was fatigued after a pretty grueling domestic season? I really don't get why he didn't start the game against France though after playing so well against Ireland, I think we could have won that game as well if he had given his form. -
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t know why people can’t comprehend that just picking 15 new players isn’t a good idea
Nice straw man argument. Who has suggested 15 new players?
My point more generally, is in my opinion, people are going overboard. The All Blacks issues are personnel problems, particularly in the loose forwards. We lack a big enforcer… we are crying out for a player like Harry Wilson. We lack an elite first five… McKenzie isn’t that, but he is probably the best we have - there’s no depth either.
We’re talking about fine margins here, and at the moment we don’t have the solutions… switching Ioane for Billy Proctor for example, in my opinion, wouldn’t make a difference, but if it did, it would be minimal.
Trying new players in certain positions probably makes us worse - not better.
Barring injuries, of the ABs XV who played France, is there anyone obvious who moves the needle on that team? Ruben Love is another example here. Might he be a good option if Jordan is to play on the wing? Maybe, but he hasn’t shown a level at Super Rugby to suggest he is a world-beater.
I couldn't disagree with this post more. We absolutely have the personnel, our problems are poor game plans and poor on-field decision making, which is a coaching problem. We could have beaten SA in SA, and France in France, but we threw those games away with poor tactics and decisions.
Did we? Or were we just beaten by better sides away from home? The All Blacks have come back to the pack having been clear for years, because our top-end talent is not as superior as it once was. Where 10 year ago a World XV would probably include 8 or 9 ABs, it might now includes 3 or 4, so naturally we aren't going to win every game. Poor on-field decision making (particularly discipline) is an example of these players not being quite as good.
You can rate McKenzie all you like, but he is not the standard of elite 10 that has been the hallmark of the ABs. This version of DMac doesn't even make the squad for the 2015 RWC IMO. I'm not suggesting this makes him bad, but the ABs used to win a lot of games because we had a freak at 10 who could dig us out of holes.
You can rate Akira Ioane all you like, but he is not the same level as a Jerome Kaino or even Liam Squire for those couple of seasons around the Lions Tour.
And can people make their minds up on whether they rate Rieko? He is both really good and really shit it seems, is it tactics, or is it his ability?
No chance there are 3-4 ABs in a World XV. I am not even sure there is one.
Considering Colin Slade was the 3rd 10 in that squad, i am pretty sure DMac is on the plane.
Liam Squire was just another in a long line of average blindsides who made a name for himself beating up the Aussies and the shit versions of Argentina.
But i agree with your overall point, we can't keep looking at 2015. That is arguably the single greatest national team of all time, packed with players who are not only in the conversation for a NZ all-time XV, but an anywhere all-time XV (and oh look, South Africa still took us to the brink). Other teams have better players now.
That doesn't excuse the quality of play we put on last year, or the names that are repeatedly selected despite proving themselves to be not up to standard, simply because the next cab off the rank is not a perfect player with zero flaws in their game.
And whoever the attack coach is can get in the bin.According to World Rugby there are three All Blacks in their 2024 dream team - Lomax, DMac and Jordan - and two other NZers Gibson-Park and James Lowe.
Three of my Mako boys - sounds about right!
DMac is an interesting discussion, because he seems to me pretty similar to Mo'unga. Good runner, decent distributor, brave but small defender, decent line-kicker, and decent goal-kicker. If Razor can't have Richie, I'd think Damien is a pretty decent substitute and I don't really get why he slipped behind Beaudie at the end of the season. I'd be pretty happy with him as our number 1, Beaudie to back him up, Jacombe in development, and the prospect of Richie coming back next year to compete for the spot. I'm not particularly uncomfortable with BB as number one (he's going well this year), but I don't really understand it. I doubt anyone else has much better options at first five.
Agree - we're wasting our time looking back at how good the 2015 ABs were - but, I will add - If McCaw got red carded after 25 minutes vs France in 2011, SA in 2015 and (given the points we conceded while Ben Smith was in the bin) Oz in 2015, we probably don't win any of those games. If Sammy doesn't get red carded in 2023 we probably win.
I agree with all you say there, well apart from Richie being a brave defender
Perhaps they felt DMac was fatigued after a pretty grueling domestic season? I really don't get why he didn't start the game against France though after playing so well against Ireland, I think we could have won that game as well if he had given his form.Considering we dominated but didn't get points i think it's a given we win.
BBarrett was a shit test 10 when he was rissoled in 2022 and he hasn't got better in the years since -
DMac offers something different, some excitement at 10, which so far Razor doesn't seem to like his players having.
After year 1 with him, I don't have a lot of faith. Only time we see an exciting player is injury forced, same as Foster.
But I'll keep my fingers crossed this year might be better. -
@Darren said in All Blacks 2025:
DMac offers something different, some excitement at 10, which so far Razor doesn't seem to like his players having.
I dunno. I often get so excited when BB is at 10, I end up throwing things at the TV
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Darren said in All Blacks 2025:
DMac offers something different, some excitement at 10, which so far Razor doesn't seem to like his players having.
I dunno. I often get so excited when BB is at 10, I end up throwing things at the TV
Stop. It. With. The. Fucking. Kicking!
Yes, I know it barely makes sense, but that's what's normally frothing out when beaudy kicks away possession again, with some stupid chip or attempt at kick pass.
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Darren said in All Blacks 2025:
DMac offers something different, some excitement at 10, which so far Razor doesn't seem to like his players having.
I dunno. I often get so excited when BB is at 10, I end up throwing things at the TV
Stop. It. With. The. Fucking. Kicking!
Yes, I know it barely makes sense, but that's what's normally frothing out when beaudy kicks away possession again, with some stupid chip or attempt at kick pass.
He is a true connoisseur of both the aimless kick and the low percentage kick. Not to mention the Sexton slow shovel it along.
It was actually a pleasant change to see him being rubbished for taking a poor option to run it back last week.
Decent fullback, crap 10. Since forever. -
@Machpants yeah the problem isn't so much the kick, it's fact it is just a kick for the the sake of it straight to a man and a poor chase...a poor kick can be made better with a great chase.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Machpants yeah the problem isn't so much the kick, it's fact it is just a kick for the the sake of it straight to a man and a poor chase...a poor kick can be made better with a great chase.
to some pundits, all that aimless, ill-directed kicking is actually controlled test match play, and a significant improvement on "headless chicken" rugby. Which, i think, tells you all you need to know about the analytical skills of said pundits.
our kick chase is fucking lackluster though
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Darren said in All Blacks 2025:
DMac offers something different, some excitement at 10, which so far Razor doesn't seem to like his players having.
I dunno. I often get so excited when BB is at 10, I end up throwing things at the TV
Stop. It. With. The. Fucking. Kicking!
Yes, I know it barely makes sense, but that's what's normally frothing out when beaudy kicks away possession again, with some stupid chip or attempt at kick pass.
He is a true connoisseur of both the aimless kick and the low percentage kick. Not to mention the Sexton slow shovel it along.
It was actually a pleasant change to see him being rubbished for taking a poor option to run it back last week.
Decent fullback, crap 10. Since forever.Was he? It seems like was all deflected to Ioane who ran back to help out, secured loose ball, and dropped it while trying to pass with a defender on him. It was also his fault that the Blues scrum gave away a penalty.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
he is inferior
Jordie is good but SA alone have De Allende and Esterhuizen who are better than him
Now that's a deluded take if I ever saw one - I remember distinctly those 2 guys couldn't make an impact against NZ teams when they were in Super Rugby, their teams were also made whipping our boys.
And it's possibly no coincidence the Canes with Jordie last year finished the robin 1st with a whopping +199 points differential & are now sitting 7th... without him.
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
he is inferior
Jordie is good but SA alone have De Allende and Esterhuizen who are better than him
Now that's a deluded take if I ever saw one - I remember distinctly those 2 guys couldn't make an impact against NZ teams when they were in Super Rugby, their teams were also made whipping our boys.
And it's possibly no coincidence the Canes with Jordie last year finished the robin 1st with a whopping +199 points differential & are now sitting 7th... without him.
I know. All they’ve managed to do is help win a couple of world cups back to back. Hopeless
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
he is inferior
Jordie is good but SA alone have De Allende and Esterhuizen who are better than him
Now that's a deluded take if I ever saw one - I remember distinctly those 2 guys couldn't make an impact against NZ teams when they were in Super Rugby, their teams were also made whipping our boys.
And it's possibly no coincidence the Canes with Jordie last year finished the robin 1st with a whopping +199 points differential & are now sitting 7th... without him.
Good analysis.
Players such as DeAllende won't have improved since then, and their team's struggles were really their fault. I'm sure that they can't have developed to be a cornerstone of a settled WC winning side, maybe even getting selected for the World Rugby dream team last year.
Similarly, we've never had a 12 who had a range of workons, played on some average teams, but somehow managed to get in the conversation as the greatest 12 we've ever had.
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
he is inferior
Jordie is good but SA alone have De Allende and Esterhuizen who are better than him
Now that's a deluded take if I ever saw one - I remember distinctly those 2 guys couldn't make an impact against NZ teams when they were in Super Rugby, their teams were also made whipping our boys.
And it's possibly no coincidence the Canes with Jordie last year finished the robin 1st with a whopping +199 points differential & are now sitting 7th... without him.
Post of the year, talking about super rugby from 5 years ago in the ABs 2025 thread.
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
he is inferior
Jordie is good but SA alone have De Allende and Esterhuizen who are better than him
Now that's a deluded take if I ever saw one - I remember distinctly those 2 guys couldn't make an impact against NZ teams when they were in Super Rugby, their teams were also made whipping our boys.
And it's possibly no coincidence the Canes with Jordie last year finished the robin 1st with a whopping +199 points differential & are now sitting 7th... without him.
No I think it’s just our luck with injuries this year mate. Jordie actually didn’t play to his best last year either. If you look at who was in that starting Canes backline last year we no longer have Barrett, Rayasi, Moorby and Perenara, Cameron is still injured and we’ve only just got Proctor and Higgins back. The Canes have been running with an almost B-grade backline this year so it’s always going to be tough to compete week in and week out.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
he is inferior
Jordie is good but SA alone have De Allende and Esterhuizen who are better than him
Now that's a deluded take if I ever saw one - I remember distinctly those 2 guys couldn't make an impact against NZ teams when they were in Super Rugby, their teams were also made whipping our boys.
And it's possibly no coincidence the Canes with Jordie last year finished the robin 1st with a whopping +199 points differential & are now sitting 7th... without him.
No I think it’s just our luck with injuries this year mate. Jordie actually didn’t play to his best last year either. If you look at who was in that starting Canes backline last year we no longer have Barrett, Rayasi, Moorby and Perenara, Cameron is still injured and we’ve only just got Proctor and Higgins back. The Canes have been running with an almost B-grade backline this year so it’s always going to be tough to compete week in and week out.
And a B grade pack during the early stages
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... and forwards the height of dwarf mondo grass ...
