All Blacks 2025
-
-
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
The difference when Jordie took over was dramatic. Just a bigger body who could get us moving forward. He hasn't kicked on, which is probably as much to do with tactics as anything
He’s big without being massive and doesn’t have the raw power of De Allende, Esterhuizen, Aki etc.
Good skills, good goal kicker.
A definite step up from Havilli but found wanting when compared to our last long term 12 ( as everyone is to be fair )
Nonu is in the GOAT conversation. In fact half the team probably is, for their positions. We were so spoiled by the 2012-2017 team
When you go through that 2015 WC Final team, we had so many players who were arguably the best we'd ever seen in those jerseys from a NZ perspective. Rettalick, Whitelock, McCaw, Kaino, Read, Smith, Smith, Smith, Carter, Nonu, Coles, prime Savea and Milner-Skudder, with the likes of prime Beaudy and SBW on the bench. That team was the best WC team ever assembled in my view and it's unlikely we'll see anything like it ever again.
The ABs haven't reached anywhere near that quality of side since, infact I'd go far as to say if the 2015 side met the side of 2025, they'd put 50+ on them with absolute ease.
All those combinations created over a long period of time is exactly what we are missing today.
Just about all of that is true, but prime Savea was definitely pre-2015 - flash of former glory against the Frogs notwithstanding.
Aye? Savea was in top form all year for the Canes prior to the ABs apart from a botched try in the final. He fell apart post 2015.
No way bro, he was dropped from the first few tests that year to go to fat camp.
He was still playing good footy and played bloody well in the WC so I’m still calling him prime Savea, especially the way he trampled on all those French players to score. You don’t do that unless your at the top your game.
He was shit in 2015, that one French game is held up as him being not, but it doesn't change the fact he was. Savea's prime was extremely short, unlike his bro, who's had a much longer prime.
His peak was as high as you get. He had the ability to run through a set defensive line and make people look ridiculous. Amazing.
But well past his best by 15, France knockout aside
I remember seeing him in a game for the Canes. It was men vs boys as he tore the defence apart. Maybe not as good as Jonah (who is?) but he reminded me of him at his peak
-
I remember thinking at his peak that I'd actually pick him over Jonah at his peak, because he was almost as good on attack, particularly when you account for the fact Jonah was playing against some very light defenders in the backs in the mid 90s. Savea was clearly better at other aspects of the game as Jonah wasn't much of a defender nor had the same general workrate. Unfortunately Savea's peak was short even by the standards of attacking wings.
-
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t know why people can’t comprehend that just picking 15 new players isn’t a good idea
Nice straw man argument. Who has suggested 15 new players?
My point more generally, is in my opinion, people are going overboard. The All Blacks issues are personnel problems, particularly in the loose forwards. We lack a big enforcer… we are crying out for a player like Harry Wilson. We lack an elite first five… McKenzie isn’t that, but he is probably the best we have - there’s no depth either.
We’re talking about fine margins here, and at the moment we don’t have the solutions… switching Ioane for Billy Proctor for example, in my opinion, wouldn’t make a difference, but if it did, it would be minimal.
Trying new players in certain positions probably makes us worse - not better.
Barring injuries, of the ABs XV who played France, is there anyone obvious who moves the needle on that team? Ruben Love is another example here. Might he be a good option if Jordan is to play on the wing? Maybe, but he hasn’t shown a level at Super Rugby to suggest he is a world-beater.
I couldn't disagree with this post more. We absolutely have the personnel, our problems are poor game plans and poor on-field decision making, which is a coaching problem. We could have beaten SA in SA, and France in France, but we threw those games away with poor tactics and decisions.
Did we? Or were we just beaten by better sides away from home? The All Blacks have come back to the pack having been clear for years, because our top-end talent is not as superior as it once was. Where 10 year ago a World XV would probably include 8 or 9 ABs, it might now includes 3 or 4, so naturally we aren't going to win every game. Poor on-field decision making (particularly discipline) is an example of these players not being quite as good.
You can rate McKenzie all you like, but he is not the standard of elite 10 that has been the hallmark of the ABs. This version of DMac doesn't even make the squad for the 2015 RWC IMO. I'm not suggesting this makes him bad, but the ABs used to win a lot of games because we had a freak at 10 who could dig us out of holes.
You can rate Akira Ioane all you like, but he is not the same level as a Jerome Kaino or even Liam Squire for those couple of seasons around the Lions Tour.
And can people make their minds up on whether they rate Rieko? He is both really good and really shit it seems, is it tactics, or is it his ability?
No chance there are 3-4 ABs in a World XV. I am not even sure there is one.
Considering Colin Slade was the 3rd 10 in that squad, i am pretty sure DMac is on the plane.
Liam Squire was just another in a long line of average blindsides who made a name for himself beating up the Aussies and the shit versions of Argentina.
But i agree with your overall point, we can't keep looking at 2015. That is arguably the single greatest national team of all time, packed with players who are not only in the conversation for a NZ all-time XV, but an anywhere all-time XV (and oh look, South Africa still took us to the brink). Other teams have better players now.
That doesn't excuse the quality of play we put on last year, or the names that are repeatedly selected despite proving themselves to be not up to standard, simply because the next cab off the rank is not a perfect player with zero flaws in their game.
And whoever the attack coach is can get in the bin.According to World Rugby there are three All Blacks in their 2024 dream team - Lomax, DMac and Jordan - and two other NZers Gibson-Park and James Lowe.
Three of my Mako boys - sounds about right!
DMac is an interesting discussion, because he seems to me pretty similar to Mo'unga. Good runner, decent distributor, brave but small defender, decent line-kicker, and decent goal-kicker. If Razor can't have Richie, I'd think Damien is a pretty decent substitute and I don't really get why he slipped behind Beaudie at the end of the season. I'd be pretty happy with him as our number 1, Beaudie to back him up, Jacombe in development, and the prospect of Richie coming back next year to compete for the spot. I'm not particularly uncomfortable with BB as number one (he's going well this year), but I don't really understand it. I doubt anyone else has much better options at first five.
Agree - we're wasting our time looking back at how good the 2015 ABs were - but, I will add - If McCaw got red carded after 25 minutes vs France in 2011, SA in 2015 and (given the points we conceded while Ben Smith was in the bin) Oz in 2015, we probably don't win any of those games. If Sammy doesn't get red carded in 2023 we probably win.
-
-
-
@HugeCarrot2 said in All Blacks 2025:
I remember thinking at his peak that I'd actually pick him over Jonah at his peak, because he was almost as good on attack, particularly when you account for the fact Jonah was playing against some very light defenders in the backs in the mid 90s. Savea was clearly better at other aspects of the game as Jonah wasn't much of a defender nor had the same general workrate. Unfortunately Savea's peak was short even by the standards of attacking wings.
Yeah I can remember thinking the same at the time, he really became a complete player and was single handedly destroying teams for us like Lomu did. The French performance stands out as it was at the RWC and we were all really nervous about what appeared a pretty good French team, but he had other performances like that.
Sports scientists need to study players like him that were dominant for a short time then just fell away quite dramatically despite age still appearing to be on their side. If he had held that peak for any period of time he would have broken our try scoring records easily.
-
@HugeCarrot2 said in All Blacks 2025:
I remember thinking at his peak that I'd actually pick him over Jonah at his peak, because he was almost as good on attack, particularly when you account for the fact Jonah was playing against some very light defenders in the backs in the mid 90s. Savea was clearly better at other aspects of the game as Jonah wasn't much of a defender nor had the same general workrate. Unfortunately Savea's peak was short even by the standards of attacking wings.
Get off the drugs
-
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t know why people can’t comprehend that just picking 15 new players isn’t a good idea
Nice straw man argument. Who has suggested 15 new players?
My point more generally, is in my opinion, people are going overboard. The All Blacks issues are personnel problems, particularly in the loose forwards. We lack a big enforcer… we are crying out for a player like Harry Wilson. We lack an elite first five… McKenzie isn’t that, but he is probably the best we have - there’s no depth either.
We’re talking about fine margins here, and at the moment we don’t have the solutions… switching Ioane for Billy Proctor for example, in my opinion, wouldn’t make a difference, but if it did, it would be minimal.
Trying new players in certain positions probably makes us worse - not better.
Barring injuries, of the ABs XV who played France, is there anyone obvious who moves the needle on that team? Ruben Love is another example here. Might he be a good option if Jordan is to play on the wing? Maybe, but he hasn’t shown a level at Super Rugby to suggest he is a world-beater.
I couldn't disagree with this post more. We absolutely have the personnel, our problems are poor game plans and poor on-field decision making, which is a coaching problem. We could have beaten SA in SA, and France in France, but we threw those games away with poor tactics and decisions.
Did we? Or were we just beaten by better sides away from home? The All Blacks have come back to the pack having been clear for years, because our top-end talent is not as superior as it once was. Where 10 year ago a World XV would probably include 8 or 9 ABs, it might now includes 3 or 4, so naturally we aren't going to win every game. Poor on-field decision making (particularly discipline) is an example of these players not being quite as good.
You can rate McKenzie all you like, but he is not the standard of elite 10 that has been the hallmark of the ABs. This version of DMac doesn't even make the squad for the 2015 RWC IMO. I'm not suggesting this makes him bad, but the ABs used to win a lot of games because we had a freak at 10 who could dig us out of holes.
You can rate Akira Ioane all you like, but he is not the same level as a Jerome Kaino or even Liam Squire for those couple of seasons around the Lions Tour.
And can people make their minds up on whether they rate Rieko? He is both really good and really shit it seems, is it tactics, or is it his ability?
No chance there are 3-4 ABs in a World XV. I am not even sure there is one.
Considering Colin Slade was the 3rd 10 in that squad, i am pretty sure DMac is on the plane.
Liam Squire was just another in a long line of average blindsides who made a name for himself beating up the Aussies and the shit versions of Argentina.
But i agree with your overall point, we can't keep looking at 2015. That is arguably the single greatest national team of all time, packed with players who are not only in the conversation for a NZ all-time XV, but an anywhere all-time XV (and oh look, South Africa still took us to the brink). Other teams have better players now.
That doesn't excuse the quality of play we put on last year, or the names that are repeatedly selected despite proving themselves to be not up to standard, simply because the next cab off the rank is not a perfect player with zero flaws in their game.
And whoever the attack coach is can get in the bin.According to World Rugby there are three All Blacks in their 2024 dream team - Lomax, DMac and Jordan - and two other NZers Gibson-Park and James Lowe.
Three of my Mako boys - sounds about right!
DMac is an interesting discussion, because he seems to me pretty similar to Mo'unga. Good runner, decent distributor, brave but small defender, decent line-kicker, and decent goal-kicker. If Razor can't have Richie, I'd think Damien is a pretty decent substitute and I don't really get why he slipped behind Beaudie at the end of the season. I'd be pretty happy with him as our number 1, Beaudie to back him up, Jacombe in development, and the prospect of Richie coming back next year to compete for the spot. I'm not particularly uncomfortable with BB as number one (he's going well this year), but I don't really understand it. I doubt anyone else has much better options at first five.
Agree - we're wasting our time looking back at how good the 2015 ABs were - but, I will add - If McCaw got red carded after 25 minutes vs France in 2011, SA in 2015 and (given the points we conceded while Ben Smith was in the bin) Oz in 2015, we probably don't win any of those games. If Sammy doesn't get red carded in 2023 we probably win.
I agree with all you say there, well apart from Richie being a brave defender
Perhaps they felt DMac was fatigued after a pretty grueling domestic season? I really don't get why he didn't start the game against France though after playing so well against Ireland, I think we could have won that game as well if he had given his form. -
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t know why people can’t comprehend that just picking 15 new players isn’t a good idea
Nice straw man argument. Who has suggested 15 new players?
My point more generally, is in my opinion, people are going overboard. The All Blacks issues are personnel problems, particularly in the loose forwards. We lack a big enforcer… we are crying out for a player like Harry Wilson. We lack an elite first five… McKenzie isn’t that, but he is probably the best we have - there’s no depth either.
We’re talking about fine margins here, and at the moment we don’t have the solutions… switching Ioane for Billy Proctor for example, in my opinion, wouldn’t make a difference, but if it did, it would be minimal.
Trying new players in certain positions probably makes us worse - not better.
Barring injuries, of the ABs XV who played France, is there anyone obvious who moves the needle on that team? Ruben Love is another example here. Might he be a good option if Jordan is to play on the wing? Maybe, but he hasn’t shown a level at Super Rugby to suggest he is a world-beater.
I couldn't disagree with this post more. We absolutely have the personnel, our problems are poor game plans and poor on-field decision making, which is a coaching problem. We could have beaten SA in SA, and France in France, but we threw those games away with poor tactics and decisions.
Did we? Or were we just beaten by better sides away from home? The All Blacks have come back to the pack having been clear for years, because our top-end talent is not as superior as it once was. Where 10 year ago a World XV would probably include 8 or 9 ABs, it might now includes 3 or 4, so naturally we aren't going to win every game. Poor on-field decision making (particularly discipline) is an example of these players not being quite as good.
You can rate McKenzie all you like, but he is not the standard of elite 10 that has been the hallmark of the ABs. This version of DMac doesn't even make the squad for the 2015 RWC IMO. I'm not suggesting this makes him bad, but the ABs used to win a lot of games because we had a freak at 10 who could dig us out of holes.
You can rate Akira Ioane all you like, but he is not the same level as a Jerome Kaino or even Liam Squire for those couple of seasons around the Lions Tour.
And can people make their minds up on whether they rate Rieko? He is both really good and really shit it seems, is it tactics, or is it his ability?
No chance there are 3-4 ABs in a World XV. I am not even sure there is one.
Considering Colin Slade was the 3rd 10 in that squad, i am pretty sure DMac is on the plane.
Liam Squire was just another in a long line of average blindsides who made a name for himself beating up the Aussies and the shit versions of Argentina.
But i agree with your overall point, we can't keep looking at 2015. That is arguably the single greatest national team of all time, packed with players who are not only in the conversation for a NZ all-time XV, but an anywhere all-time XV (and oh look, South Africa still took us to the brink). Other teams have better players now.
That doesn't excuse the quality of play we put on last year, or the names that are repeatedly selected despite proving themselves to be not up to standard, simply because the next cab off the rank is not a perfect player with zero flaws in their game.
And whoever the attack coach is can get in the bin.According to World Rugby there are three All Blacks in their 2024 dream team - Lomax, DMac and Jordan - and two other NZers Gibson-Park and James Lowe.
Three of my Mako boys - sounds about right!
DMac is an interesting discussion, because he seems to me pretty similar to Mo'unga. Good runner, decent distributor, brave but small defender, decent line-kicker, and decent goal-kicker. If Razor can't have Richie, I'd think Damien is a pretty decent substitute and I don't really get why he slipped behind Beaudie at the end of the season. I'd be pretty happy with him as our number 1, Beaudie to back him up, Jacombe in development, and the prospect of Richie coming back next year to compete for the spot. I'm not particularly uncomfortable with BB as number one (he's going well this year), but I don't really understand it. I doubt anyone else has much better options at first five.
Agree - we're wasting our time looking back at how good the 2015 ABs were - but, I will add - If McCaw got red carded after 25 minutes vs France in 2011, SA in 2015 and (given the points we conceded while Ben Smith was in the bin) Oz in 2015, we probably don't win any of those games. If Sammy doesn't get red carded in 2023 we probably win.
I agree with all you say there, well apart from Richie being a brave defender
Perhaps they felt DMac was fatigued after a pretty grueling domestic season? I really don't get why he didn't start the game against France though after playing so well against Ireland, I think we could have won that game as well if he had given his form.Considering we dominated but didn't get points i think it's a given we win.
BBarrett was a shit test 10 when he was rissoled in 2022 and he hasn't got better in the years since -
DMac offers something different, some excitement at 10, which so far Razor doesn't seem to like his players having.
After year 1 with him, I don't have a lot of faith. Only time we see an exciting player is injury forced, same as Foster.
But I'll keep my fingers crossed this year might be better. -
@Darren said in All Blacks 2025:
DMac offers something different, some excitement at 10, which so far Razor doesn't seem to like his players having.
I dunno. I often get so excited when BB is at 10, I end up throwing things at the TV
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Darren said in All Blacks 2025:
DMac offers something different, some excitement at 10, which so far Razor doesn't seem to like his players having.
I dunno. I often get so excited when BB is at 10, I end up throwing things at the TV
Stop. It. With. The. Fucking. Kicking!
Yes, I know it barely makes sense, but that's what's normally frothing out when beaudy kicks away possession again, with some stupid chip or attempt at kick pass.
-
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Darren said in All Blacks 2025:
DMac offers something different, some excitement at 10, which so far Razor doesn't seem to like his players having.
I dunno. I often get so excited when BB is at 10, I end up throwing things at the TV
Stop. It. With. The. Fucking. Kicking!
Yes, I know it barely makes sense, but that's what's normally frothing out when beaudy kicks away possession again, with some stupid chip or attempt at kick pass.
He is a true connoisseur of both the aimless kick and the low percentage kick. Not to mention the Sexton slow shovel it along.
It was actually a pleasant change to see him being rubbished for taking a poor option to run it back last week.
Decent fullback, crap 10. Since forever. -
@Machpants yeah the problem isn't so much the kick, it's fact it is just a kick for the the sake of it straight to a man and a poor chase...a poor kick can be made better with a great chase.
-
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Machpants yeah the problem isn't so much the kick, it's fact it is just a kick for the the sake of it straight to a man and a poor chase...a poor kick can be made better with a great chase.
to some pundits, all that aimless, ill-directed kicking is actually controlled test match play, and a significant improvement on "headless chicken" rugby. Which, i think, tells you all you need to know about the analytical skills of said pundits.
our kick chase is fucking lackluster though
-
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@Darren said in All Blacks 2025:
DMac offers something different, some excitement at 10, which so far Razor doesn't seem to like his players having.
I dunno. I often get so excited when BB is at 10, I end up throwing things at the TV
Stop. It. With. The. Fucking. Kicking!
Yes, I know it barely makes sense, but that's what's normally frothing out when beaudy kicks away possession again, with some stupid chip or attempt at kick pass.
He is a true connoisseur of both the aimless kick and the low percentage kick. Not to mention the Sexton slow shovel it along.
It was actually a pleasant change to see him being rubbished for taking a poor option to run it back last week.
Decent fullback, crap 10. Since forever.Was he? It seems like was all deflected to Ioane who ran back to help out, secured loose ball, and dropped it while trying to pass with a defender on him. It was also his fault that the Blues scrum gave away a penalty.
