All Blacks 2025
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@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
richie mounga a more resent example
I'll assume that's a typo.
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I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out. -
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
he is inferior
Jordie is good but SA alone have De Allende and Esterhuizen who are better than him
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Some of the posts in this thread use interesting logic.
Legend X, who was mediocre for several years in a settled team, at his prime thanks to being persisted with, is superior to someone else who was chosen briefly during relative instability, and promptly thrown out. -
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
The difference when Jordie took over was dramatic. Just a bigger body who could get us moving forward. He hasn't kicked on, which is probably as much to do with tactics as anything
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
The difference when Jordie took over was dramatic. Just a bigger body who could get us moving forward. He hasn't kicked on, which is probably as much to do with tactics as anything
He’s big without being massive and doesn’t have the raw power of De Allende, Esterhuizen, Aki etc.
Good skills, good goal kicker.
A definite step up from Havilli but found wanting when compared to our last long term 12 ( as everyone is to be fair )
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
The difference when Jordie took over was dramatic. Just a bigger body who could get us moving forward. He hasn't kicked on, which is probably as much to do with tactics as anything
He’s big without being massive and doesn’t have the raw power of De Allende, Esterhuizen, Aki etc.
Good skills, good goal kicker.
A definite step up from Havilli but found wanting when compared to our last long term 12 ( as everyone is to be fair )
Nonu is in the GOAT conversation. In fact half the team probably is, for their positions. We were so spoiled by the 2012-2017 team
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
The difference when Jordie took over was dramatic. Just a bigger body who could get us moving forward. He hasn't kicked on, which is probably as much to do with tactics as anything
He’s big without being massive and doesn’t have the raw power of De Allende, Esterhuizen, Aki etc.
Good skills, good goal kicker.
A definite step up from Havilli but found wanting when compared to our last long term 12 ( as everyone is to be fair )
Nonu is in the GOAT conversation. In fact half the team probably is, for their positions. We were so spoiled by the 2012-2017 team
When you go through that 2015 WC Final team, we had so many players who were arguably the best we'd ever seen in those jerseys from a NZ perspective. Rettalick, Whitelock, McCaw, Kaino, Read, Smith, Smith, Smith, Carter, Nonu, Coles, prime Savea and Milner-Skudder, with the likes of prime Beaudy and SBW on the bench. That team was the best WC team ever assembled in my view and it's unlikely we'll see anything like it ever again.
The ABs haven't reached anywhere near that quality of side since, infact I'd go far as to say if the 2015 side met the side of 2025, they'd put 50+ on them with absolute ease.
All those combinations created over a long period of time is exactly what we are missing today.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
The difference when Jordie took over was dramatic. Just a bigger body who could get us moving forward. He hasn't kicked on, which is probably as much to do with tactics as anything
He’s big without being massive and doesn’t have the raw power of De Allende, Esterhuizen, Aki etc.
Good skills, good goal kicker.
A definite step up from Havilli but found wanting when compared to our last long term 12 ( as everyone is to be fair )
Nonu is in the GOAT conversation. In fact half the team probably is, for their positions. We were so spoiled by the 2012-2017 team
When you go through that 2015 WC Final team, we had so many players who were arguably the best we'd ever seen in those jerseys from a NZ perspective. Rettalick, Whitelock, McCaw, Kaino, Read, Smith, Smith, Smith, Carter, Nonu, Coles, prime Savea and Milner-Skudder, with the likes of prime Beaudy and SBW on the bench. That team was the best WC team ever assembled in my view and it's unlikely we'll see anything like it ever again.
The ABs haven't reached anywhere near that quality of side since, infact I'd go far as to say if the 2015 side met the side of 2025, they'd put 50+ on them with absolute ease.
All those combinations created over a long period of time is exactly what we are missing today.
The scoreline might fluctuate even more depending on how tired Beauden Barrett got playing for both teams
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
The difference when Jordie took over was dramatic. Just a bigger body who could get us moving forward. He hasn't kicked on, which is probably as much to do with tactics as anything
He’s big without being massive and doesn’t have the raw power of De Allende, Esterhuizen, Aki etc.
Good skills, good goal kicker.
A definite step up from Havilli but found wanting when compared to our last long term 12 ( as everyone is to be fair )
Nonu is in the GOAT conversation. In fact half the team probably is, for their positions. We were so spoiled by the 2012-2017 team
When you go through that 2015 WC Final team, we had so many players who were arguably the best we'd ever seen in those jerseys from a NZ perspective. Rettalick, Whitelock, McCaw, Kaino, Read, Smith, Smith, Smith, Carter, Nonu, Coles, prime Savea and Milner-Skudder, with the likes of prime Beaudy and SBW on the bench. That team was the best WC team ever assembled in my view and it's unlikely we'll see anything like it ever again.
The ABs haven't reached anywhere near that quality of side since, infact I'd go far as to say if the 2015 side met the side of 2025, they'd put 50+ on them with absolute ease.
All those combinations created over a long period of time is exactly what we are missing today.
Just about all of that is true, but prime Savea was definitely pre-2015 - flash of former glory against the Frogs notwithstanding.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
The difference when Jordie took over was dramatic. Just a bigger body who could get us moving forward. He hasn't kicked on, which is probably as much to do with tactics as anything
He’s big without being massive and doesn’t have the raw power of De Allende, Esterhuizen, Aki etc.
Good skills, good goal kicker.
A definite step up from Havilli but found wanting when compared to our last long term 12 ( as everyone is to be fair )
Nonu is in the GOAT conversation. In fact half the team probably is, for their positions. We were so spoiled by the 2012-2017 team
When you go through that 2015 WC Final team, we had so many players who were arguably the best we'd ever seen in those jerseys from a NZ perspective. Rettalick, Whitelock, McCaw, Kaino, Read, Smith, Smith, Smith, Carter, Nonu, Coles, prime Savea and Milner-Skudder, with the likes of prime Beaudy and SBW on the bench. That team was the best WC team ever assembled in my view and it's unlikely we'll see anything like it ever again.
The ABs haven't reached anywhere near that quality of side since, infact I'd go far as to say if the 2015 side met the side of 2025, they'd put 50+ on them with absolute ease.
All those combinations created over a long period of time is exactly what we are missing today.
Just about all of that is true, but prime Savea was definitely pre-2015 - flash of former glory against the Frogs notwithstanding.
Aye? Savea was in top form all year for the Canes prior to the ABs apart from a botched try in the final. He fell apart post 2015.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
The difference when Jordie took over was dramatic. Just a bigger body who could get us moving forward. He hasn't kicked on, which is probably as much to do with tactics as anything
He’s big without being massive and doesn’t have the raw power of De Allende, Esterhuizen, Aki etc.
Good skills, good goal kicker.
A definite step up from Havilli but found wanting when compared to our last long term 12 ( as everyone is to be fair )
Nonu is in the GOAT conversation. In fact half the team probably is, for their positions. We were so spoiled by the 2012-2017 team
When you go through that 2015 WC Final team, we had so many players who were arguably the best we'd ever seen in those jerseys from a NZ perspective. Rettalick, Whitelock, McCaw, Kaino, Read, Smith, Smith, Smith, Carter, Nonu, Coles, prime Savea and Milner-Skudder, with the likes of prime Beaudy and SBW on the bench. That team was the best WC team ever assembled in my view and it's unlikely we'll see anything like it ever again.
The ABs haven't reached anywhere near that quality of side since, infact I'd go far as to say if the 2015 side met the side of 2025, they'd put 50+ on them with absolute ease.
All those combinations created over a long period of time is exactly what we are missing today.
Just about all of that is true, but prime Savea was definitely pre-2015 - flash of former glory against the Frogs notwithstanding.
Aye? Savea was in top form all year for the Canes prior to the ABs apart from a botched try in the final. He fell apart post 2015.
No way bro, he was dropped from the first few tests that year to go to fat camp.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
The difference when Jordie took over was dramatic. Just a bigger body who could get us moving forward. He hasn't kicked on, which is probably as much to do with tactics as anything
He’s big without being massive and doesn’t have the raw power of De Allende, Esterhuizen, Aki etc.
Good skills, good goal kicker.
A definite step up from Havilli but found wanting when compared to our last long term 12 ( as everyone is to be fair )
Nonu is in the GOAT conversation. In fact half the team probably is, for their positions. We were so spoiled by the 2012-2017 team
When you go through that 2015 WC Final team, we had so many players who were arguably the best we'd ever seen in those jerseys from a NZ perspective. Rettalick, Whitelock, McCaw, Kaino, Read, Smith, Smith, Smith, Carter, Nonu, Coles, prime Savea and Milner-Skudder, with the likes of prime Beaudy and SBW on the bench. That team was the best WC team ever assembled in my view and it's unlikely we'll see anything like it ever again.
The ABs haven't reached anywhere near that quality of side since, infact I'd go far as to say if the 2015 side met the side of 2025, they'd put 50+ on them with absolute ease.
All those combinations created over a long period of time is exactly what we are missing today.
Just about all of that is true, but prime Savea was definitely pre-2015 - flash of former glory against the Frogs notwithstanding.
Aye? Savea was in top form all year for the Canes prior to the ABs apart from a botched try in the final. He fell apart post 2015.
No way bro, he was dropped from the first few tests that year to go to fat camp.
He was still playing good footy and played bloody well in the WC so I’m still calling him prime Savea, especially the way he trampled on all those French players to score. You don’t do that unless your at the top your game.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
He was still playing good footy and played bloody well in the WC so I’m still calling him prime Savea, especially the way he trampled on all those French players to score. You don’t do that unless your at the top your game.
Well he was pretty heavy then.
But what great balance he had for a big man when he first started for the ABs. -
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
He was still playing good footy and played bloody well in the WC so I’m still calling him prime Savea, especially the way he trampled on all those French players to score. You don’t do that unless your at the top your game.
Well he was pretty heavy then.
But what great balance he had for a big man when he first started for the ABs.The wheels really fell off in 2016/2017 though, ultimately costing him his spot for a young Ioane. From memory he also failed to make the starting side for the Canes when they won in 2016 as well.
Then he went to Toulon where he was slated in the media for being utter rubbish and then he came back and for some god damn reason the Canes picked him up again (probably just to please his bro). He’s been average at best since.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
The difference when Jordie took over was dramatic. Just a bigger body who could get us moving forward. He hasn't kicked on, which is probably as much to do with tactics as anything
He’s big without being massive and doesn’t have the raw power of De Allende, Esterhuizen, Aki etc.
Good skills, good goal kicker.
A definite step up from Havilli but found wanting when compared to our last long term 12 ( as everyone is to be fair )
Nonu is in the GOAT conversation. In fact half the team probably is, for their positions. We were so spoiled by the 2012-2017 team
When you go through that 2015 WC Final team, we had so many players who were arguably the best we'd ever seen in those jerseys from a NZ perspective. Rettalick, Whitelock, McCaw, Kaino, Read, Smith, Smith, Smith, Carter, Nonu, Coles, prime Savea and Milner-Skudder, with the likes of prime Beaudy and SBW on the bench. That team was the best WC team ever assembled in my view and it's unlikely we'll see anything like it ever again.
The ABs haven't reached anywhere near that quality of side since, infact I'd go far as to say if the 2015 side met the side of 2025, they'd put 50+ on them with absolute ease.
All those combinations created over a long period of time is exactly what we are missing today.
Just about all of that is true, but prime Savea was definitely pre-2015 - flash of former glory against the Frogs notwithstanding.
Aye? Savea was in top form all year for the Canes prior to the ABs apart from a botched try in the final. He fell apart post 2015.
No way bro, he was dropped from the first few tests that year to go to fat camp.
He was still playing good footy and played bloody well in the WC so I’m still calling him prime Savea, especially the way he trampled on all those French players to score. You don’t do that unless your at the top your game.
He was shit in 2015, that one French game is held up as him being not, but it doesn't change the fact he was. Savea's prime was extremely short, unlike his bro, who's had a much longer prime.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
He was still playing good footy and played bloody well in the WC so I’m still calling him prime Savea, especially the way he trampled on all those French players to score. You don’t do that unless your at the top your game.
Well he was pretty heavy then.
But what great balance he had for a big man when he first started for the ABs.The wheels really fell off in 2016/2017 though, ultimately costing him his spot for a young Ioane. From memory he also failed to make the starting side for the Canes when they won in 2016 as well.
Then he went to Toulon where he was slated in the media for being utter rubbish and then he came back and for some god damn reason the Canes picked him up again (probably just to please his bro). He’s been average at best since.
The owner was an idiot who obsessed over shiny objects. Anyone could see Julian was cooked before RWC15
