All Blacks 2025
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@taniwharugby Yeah, I mean it's inevitable that you're going to lose some players when you have dominant Nonu class players who are the best for a decade, there's just not opportunity there because nobody is as good as him. But holding on to guys who are getting outplayed is terrible for morale, people hate not being selected on merit and they will leave.
Then you have coaches with too much ego who clash with players instead of recognising that their job is to get the best out of those players, and if they aren't able to do that then they aren't very good at their job - they are the problem. As exemplified by Hammett at the Hurricanes, and that astonishing Doncic trade in the NBA.
Then as you say, the shoe-horn. Havili as a battering ram? Rieko too. Barrett as a 6. Jordie as a winger. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t know why people can’t comprehend that just picking 15 new players isn’t a good idea
Nice straw man argument. Who has suggested 15 new players?
My point more generally, is in my opinion, people are going overboard. The All Blacks issues are personnel problems, particularly in the loose forwards. We lack a big enforcer… we are crying out for a player like Harry Wilson. We lack an elite first five… McKenzie isn’t that, but he is probably the best we have - there’s no depth either.
We’re talking about fine margins here, and at the moment we don’t have the solutions… switching Ioane for Billy Proctor for example, in my opinion, wouldn’t make a difference, but if it did, it would be minimal.
Trying new players in certain positions probably makes us worse - not better.
Barring injuries, of the ABs XV who played France, is there anyone obvious who moves the needle on that team? Ruben Love is another example here. Might he be a good option if Jordan is to play on the wing? Maybe, but he hasn’t shown a level at Super Rugby to suggest he is a world-beater.
I couldn't disagree with this post more. We absolutely have the personnel, our problems are poor game plans and poor on-field decision making, which is a coaching problem. We could have beaten SA in SA, and France in France, but we threw those games away with poor tactics and decisions.
Did we? Or were we just beaten by better sides away from home? The All Blacks have come back to the pack having been clear for years, because our top-end talent is not as superior as it once was. Where 10 year ago a World XV would probably include 8 or 9 ABs, it might now includes 3 or 4, so naturally we aren't going to win every game. Poor on-field decision making (particularly discipline) is an example of these players not being quite as good.
You can rate McKenzie all you like, but he is not the standard of elite 10 that has been the hallmark of the ABs. This version of DMac doesn't even make the squad for the 2015 RWC IMO. I'm not suggesting this makes him bad, but the ABs used to win a lot of games because we had a freak at 10 who could dig us out of holes.
You can rate Akira Ioane all you like, but he is not the same level as a Jerome Kaino or even Liam Squire for those couple of seasons around the Lions Tour.
And can people make their minds up on whether they rate Rieko? He is both really good and really shit it seems, is it tactics, or is it his ability?
The Akira bit is the problem. And it's the same deal with Sotutu.
These guys are clear standouts at our level directly below test, and have the physical attributes to do the same at test level. If you have a team stacked full of Carter, McCaw, Nonu etc, then you can afford to not select some of these players - but when we don't happen to have all of the best players in the world at once, then you need to manage it competently and get the best out of your best potential players. We are not doing that, we are discarding them or not selecting them at all, and replacing them with guys who are mid-tier glue at best. Same with picking Taylor when he was playing shit and Taukeiaho was playing the house down. Foster keeping our old-arse props around until they deselect themselves through injury etc. Discarding Luatua. Now, Fihaki from out of nowhere? Bell?On McKenzie - yeah he's not Carter, but who of the teams who beat us have a Carter? Bloody none of them.
Also I'm not a Blues guy, so maybe I'm remembering it wrong - but didn't they beat the Lions with Akira being MOTM?
Akita was dominant in 2017-2018. Don't let Southerners tell you otherwise.
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I think continuity and player development can be equally important and in some ways both sides of the same coin. Taylor came good after the coaches kept faith in him and the same can be said for Vaa'i. Clearly the coaching staff saw something there and persisted.
That's not to disagree with your point on getting the best out of players, actually playing them and not discarding them - that's bang on. I've lost count of the number of 2-3 Test AB's we've discarded in recent years.
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@Victor-Meldrew I know what you are saying, but Vaai and Taylor were different, Vaai was a talented youngster that hadnt found his feet, Taylor was an experienced player, and a young player was playing vastly better, yet they persisted with Taylor, yes he came good, but his form was not helpful to our overall game...I mean it was almost like eventually they played the form out of Samisoni....
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t know why people can’t comprehend that just picking 15 new players isn’t a good idea
Nice straw man argument. Who has suggested 15 new players?
My point more generally, is in my opinion, people are going overboard. The All Blacks issues are personnel problems, particularly in the loose forwards. We lack a big enforcer… we are crying out for a player like Harry Wilson. We lack an elite first five… McKenzie isn’t that, but he is probably the best we have - there’s no depth either.
We’re talking about fine margins here, and at the moment we don’t have the solutions… switching Ioane for Billy Proctor for example, in my opinion, wouldn’t make a difference, but if it did, it would be minimal.
Trying new players in certain positions probably makes us worse - not better.
Barring injuries, of the ABs XV who played France, is there anyone obvious who moves the needle on that team? Ruben Love is another example here. Might he be a good option if Jordan is to play on the wing? Maybe, but he hasn’t shown a level at Super Rugby to suggest he is a world-beater.
I couldn't disagree with this post more. We absolutely have the personnel, our problems are poor game plans and poor on-field decision making, which is a coaching problem. We could have beaten SA in SA, and France in France, but we threw those games away with poor tactics and decisions.
Did we? Or were we just beaten by better sides away from home? The All Blacks have come back to the pack having been clear for years, because our top-end talent is not as superior as it once was. Where 10 year ago a World XV would probably include 8 or 9 ABs, it might now includes 3 or 4, so naturally we aren't going to win every game. Poor on-field decision making (particularly discipline) is an example of these players not being quite as good.
You can rate McKenzie all you like, but he is not the standard of elite 10 that has been the hallmark of the ABs. This version of DMac doesn't even make the squad for the 2015 RWC IMO. I'm not suggesting this makes him bad, but the ABs used to win a lot of games because we had a freak at 10 who could dig us out of holes.
You can rate Akira Ioane all you like, but he is not the same level as a Jerome Kaino or even Liam Squire for those couple of seasons around the Lions Tour.
And can people make their minds up on whether they rate Rieko? He is both really good and really shit it seems, is it tactics, or is it his ability?
No chance there are 3-4 ABs in a World XV. I am not even sure there is one.
Considering Colin Slade was the 3rd 10 in that squad, i am pretty sure DMac is on the plane.
Liam Squire was just another in a long line of average blindsides who made a name for himself beating up the Aussies and the shit versions of Argentina.
But i agree with your overall point, we can't keep looking at 2015. That is arguably the single greatest national team of all time, packed with players who are not only in the conversation for a NZ all-time XV, but an anywhere all-time XV (and oh look, South Africa still took us to the brink). Other teams have better players now.
That doesn't excuse the quality of play we put on last year, or the names that are repeatedly selected despite proving themselves to be not up to standard, simply because the next cab off the rank is not a perfect player with zero flaws in their game.
And whoever the attack coach is can get in the bin. -
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t know why people can’t comprehend that just picking 15 new players isn’t a good idea
Nice straw man argument. Who has suggested 15 new players?
My point more generally, is in my opinion, people are going overboard. The All Blacks issues are personnel problems, particularly in the loose forwards. We lack a big enforcer… we are crying out for a player like Harry Wilson. We lack an elite first five… McKenzie isn’t that, but he is probably the best we have - there’s no depth either.
We’re talking about fine margins here, and at the moment we don’t have the solutions… switching Ioane for Billy Proctor for example, in my opinion, wouldn’t make a difference, but if it did, it would be minimal.
Trying new players in certain positions probably makes us worse - not better.
Barring injuries, of the ABs XV who played France, is there anyone obvious who moves the needle on that team? Ruben Love is another example here. Might he be a good option if Jordan is to play on the wing? Maybe, but he hasn’t shown a level at Super Rugby to suggest he is a world-beater.
I couldn't disagree with this post more. We absolutely have the personnel, our problems are poor game plans and poor on-field decision making, which is a coaching problem. We could have beaten SA in SA, and France in France, but we threw those games away with poor tactics and decisions.
Did we? Or were we just beaten by better sides away from home? The All Blacks have come back to the pack having been clear for years, because our top-end talent is not as superior as it once was. Where 10 year ago a World XV would probably include 8 or 9 ABs, it might now includes 3 or 4, so naturally we aren't going to win every game. Poor on-field decision making (particularly discipline) is an example of these players not being quite as good.
You can rate McKenzie all you like, but he is not the standard of elite 10 that has been the hallmark of the ABs. This version of DMac doesn't even make the squad for the 2015 RWC IMO. I'm not suggesting this makes him bad, but the ABs used to win a lot of games because we had a freak at 10 who could dig us out of holes.
You can rate Akira Ioane all you like, but he is not the same level as a Jerome Kaino or even Liam Squire for those couple of seasons around the Lions Tour.
And can people make their minds up on whether they rate Rieko? He is both really good and really shit it seems, is it tactics, or is it his ability?
No chance there are 3-4 ABs in a World XV. I am not even sure there is one.
Considering Colin Slade was the 3rd 10 in that squad, i am pretty sure DMac is on the plane.
Liam Squire was just another in a long line of average blindsides who made a name for himself beating up the Aussies and the shit versions of Argentina.
But i agree with your overall point, we can't keep looking at 2015. That is arguably the single greatest national team of all time, packed with players who are not only in the conversation for a NZ all-time XV, but an anywhere all-time XV (and oh look, South Africa still took us to the brink). Other teams have better players now.
That doesn't excuse the quality of play we put on last year, or the names that are repeatedly selected despite proving themselves to be not up to standard, simply because the next cab off the rank is not a perfect player with zero flaws in their game.
Hey, remember you were telling us Jordie Barrett is an inferior midfielder to SA's ones & the top NH teams and now he's left Super Rugby and is measured up against those guys every week it's so blatantly obvious how good he is & would stroll into starting 12 of a World XV.
If anything, NZ fans are guilty of hugely underrating our talent because of the trauma stemming from the Foster era.
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he is inferior
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t know why people can’t comprehend that just picking 15 new players isn’t a good idea
Nice straw man argument. Who has suggested 15 new players?
My point more generally, is in my opinion, people are going overboard. The All Blacks issues are personnel problems, particularly in the loose forwards. We lack a big enforcer… we are crying out for a player like Harry Wilson. We lack an elite first five… McKenzie isn’t that, but he is probably the best we have - there’s no depth either.
We’re talking about fine margins here, and at the moment we don’t have the solutions… switching Ioane for Billy Proctor for example, in my opinion, wouldn’t make a difference, but if it did, it would be minimal.
Trying new players in certain positions probably makes us worse - not better.
Barring injuries, of the ABs XV who played France, is there anyone obvious who moves the needle on that team? Ruben Love is another example here. Might he be a good option if Jordan is to play on the wing? Maybe, but he hasn’t shown a level at Super Rugby to suggest he is a world-beater.
I couldn't disagree with this post more. We absolutely have the personnel, our problems are poor game plans and poor on-field decision making, which is a coaching problem. We could have beaten SA in SA, and France in France, but we threw those games away with poor tactics and decisions.
Did we? Or were we just beaten by better sides away from home? The All Blacks have come back to the pack having been clear for years, because our top-end talent is not as superior as it once was. Where 10 year ago a World XV would probably include 8 or 9 ABs, it might now includes 3 or 4, so naturally we aren't going to win every game. Poor on-field decision making (particularly discipline) is an example of these players not being quite as good.
You can rate McKenzie all you like, but he is not the standard of elite 10 that has been the hallmark of the ABs. This version of DMac doesn't even make the squad for the 2015 RWC IMO. I'm not suggesting this makes him bad, but the ABs used to win a lot of games because we had a freak at 10 who could dig us out of holes.
You can rate Akira Ioane all you like, but he is not the same level as a Jerome Kaino or even Liam Squire for those couple of seasons around the Lions Tour.
And can people make their minds up on whether they rate Rieko? He is both really good and really shit it seems, is it tactics, or is it his ability?
No chance there are 3-4 ABs in a World XV. I am not even sure there is one.
Considering Colin Slade was the 3rd 10 in that squad, i am pretty sure DMac is on the plane.
Liam Squire was just another in a long line of average blindsides who made a name for himself beating up the Aussies and the shit versions of Argentina.
But i agree with your overall point, we can't keep looking at 2015. That is arguably the single greatest national team of all time, packed with players who are not only in the conversation for a NZ all-time XV, but an anywhere all-time XV (and oh look, South Africa still took us to the brink). Other teams have better players now.
That doesn't excuse the quality of play we put on last year, or the names that are repeatedly selected despite proving themselves to be not up to standard, simply because the next cab off the rank is not a perfect player with zero flaws in their game.
Hey, remember you were telling us Jordie Barrett is an inferior midfielder to SA's ones & the top NH teams and now he's left Super Rugby and is measured up against those guys every week it's so blatantly obvious how good he is & would stroll into starting 12 of a World XV.
If anything, NZ fans are guilty of hugely underrating our talent because of the trauma stemming from the Foster era.
Keep in mind Jordie is playing in inferior competitions. SA SR sides used to get regularly bent over and now they've run away to an inferior competition (URC) they're now more successful.
They still have some handy 12s.
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I love it how people bring up Kaino (as he was in 2008 - 2015 ) but ignore 2004 - 2006.
They rabbit on about Nonu (as he was in 2011 - 2015), but seem to forget him from 2003 - 2007.
How about some identification of the players who have the capability to be consistently in World XVs and then some patience and coaching while we get them there? -
@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
richie mounga a more resent example
I'll assume that's a typo.
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I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out. -
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
he is inferior
Jordie is good but SA alone have De Allende and Esterhuizen who are better than him
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Some of the posts in this thread use interesting logic.
Legend X, who was mediocre for several years in a settled team, at his prime thanks to being persisted with, is superior to someone else who was chosen briefly during relative instability, and promptly thrown out. -
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
The difference when Jordie took over was dramatic. Just a bigger body who could get us moving forward. He hasn't kicked on, which is probably as much to do with tactics as anything
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
The difference when Jordie took over was dramatic. Just a bigger body who could get us moving forward. He hasn't kicked on, which is probably as much to do with tactics as anything
He’s big without being massive and doesn’t have the raw power of De Allende, Esterhuizen, Aki etc.
Good skills, good goal kicker.
A definite step up from Havilli but found wanting when compared to our last long term 12 ( as everyone is to be fair )
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
The difference when Jordie took over was dramatic. Just a bigger body who could get us moving forward. He hasn't kicked on, which is probably as much to do with tactics as anything
He’s big without being massive and doesn’t have the raw power of De Allende, Esterhuizen, Aki etc.
Good skills, good goal kicker.
A definite step up from Havilli but found wanting when compared to our last long term 12 ( as everyone is to be fair )
Nonu is in the GOAT conversation. In fact half the team probably is, for their positions. We were so spoiled by the 2012-2017 team
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
I'm not going to criticize the coaches for playing Sititi at 6 because he actually did bloody well there.
I'll be upset if they bring back DH, though. Does some good things at Super level but at international level he either isn't a quality long-term 12 against top sides or they haven't used him properly. It is not like they don't have other 12s to try out.I agree, Havili doesn't have the size or style for international footy. We need a 12 that can consistently get us over the advantage line against top teams. This is exactly why I think Lam would go well as an international 12 for us, he has the acceleration and power to burst through tackles, but he also has the silky skills to put others away if required.
Yeah but he has amazing utility value
The difference when Jordie took over was dramatic. Just a bigger body who could get us moving forward. He hasn't kicked on, which is probably as much to do with tactics as anything
He’s big without being massive and doesn’t have the raw power of De Allende, Esterhuizen, Aki etc.
Good skills, good goal kicker.
A definite step up from Havilli but found wanting when compared to our last long term 12 ( as everyone is to be fair )
Nonu is in the GOAT conversation. In fact half the team probably is, for their positions. We were so spoiled by the 2012-2017 team
When you go through that 2015 WC Final team, we had so many players who were arguably the best we'd ever seen in those jerseys from a NZ perspective. Rettalick, Whitelock, McCaw, Kaino, Read, Smith, Smith, Smith, Carter, Nonu, Coles, prime Savea and Milner-Skudder, with the likes of prime Beaudy and SBW on the bench. That team was the best WC team ever assembled in my view and it's unlikely we'll see anything like it ever again.
The ABs haven't reached anywhere near that quality of side since, infact I'd go far as to say if the 2015 side met the side of 2025, they'd put 50+ on them with absolute ease.
All those combinations created over a long period of time is exactly what we are missing today.
