All Blacks 2025
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
I think there will be a number of surprises for the French series. It has the hallmarks of the type of series to be trying a few different combinations.
Hope so, but I'm not holding my breath for the first two games.
Either Robertson's picking his players for some almost-secret game plan we can't see, he's incredibly risk averse or lacks confidence. Maybe a bit of all three.
Or he's a homer whose default setting is to play favourites rather than on merit
-
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Not to be overly negative, but can any one tell me what brand of rugby Razor's ABs play. For all the other big teams i can pretty much tell you what their over all plan is. I have no idea what the ABs are trying to do. It often looks different depending on who has the ball in their hands at any given time.
Fozzie kept it secret for years as well.... quite frustrating.
i sort of worked it out by the knocks outs of the world cup. literally the last 3 fucking games of his time as a coach. before that, yup, no clue.
Yeah, Razor's All Blacks are so similar to Fozzie's, so much headless chicken stuff.
This was the thing that annoyed me most last year. Robertson spent a lot of the previous four years briefing, through his pals in the media, against Foster and the brand of rugby his All Blacks played. Robertson became coach and the All Blacks played in almost exactly the same way. It was continuity Foster in all but name.
-
-
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Not to be overly negative, but can any one tell me what brand of rugby Razor's ABs play. For all the other big teams i can pretty much tell you what their over all plan is. I have no idea what the ABs are trying to do. It often looks different depending on who has the ball in their hands at any given time.
Fozzie kept it secret for years as well.... quite frustrating.
i sort of worked it out by the knocks outs of the world cup. literally the last 3 fucking games of his time as a coach. before that, yup, no clue.
Yeah, Razor's All Blacks are so similar to Fozzie's, so much headless chicken stuff.
This was the thing that annoyed me most last year. Robertson spent a lot of the previous four year briefing, through his pals in the media, against Foster and the brand of rugby his All Blacks played. Robertson became coach and the All Blacks played in almost exactly the same way. It was continuity Foster in all but name.
Quite at odds with how I remember his Crusaders team playing as well. Just lacking in imagination and innovation
-
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Not to be overly negative, but can any one tell me what brand of rugby Razor's ABs play. For all the other big teams i can pretty much tell you what their over all plan is. I have no idea what the ABs are trying to do. It often looks different depending on who has the ball in their hands at any given time.
Fozzie kept it secret for years as well.... quite frustrating.
i sort of worked it out by the knocks outs of the world cup. literally the last 3 fucking games of his time as a coach. before that, yup, no clue.
Yeah, Razor's All Blacks are so similar to Fozzie's, so much headless chicken stuff.
This was the thing that annoyed me most last year. Robertson spent a lot of the previous four year briefing, through his pals in the media, against Foster and the brand of rugby his All Blacks played. Robertson became coach and the All Blacks played in almost exactly the same way. It was continuity Foster in all but name.
Well, I don't know if Robertson was instrumental in getting people to brief against Foster, but some of the pro-Robertson fluffing resembled mass-hysteria. (My personal favourite was the idiot who claimed structural problems in NZ Rugby were all down to Foster trashing the AB legacy and "Razor will do what he did with Hamner, and restore the AB legacy which will rapidly trickle down and solve any problems")
Robertson had zero international experience so I guess it made sense for him to go continuity, but I expected a bit more towards the end of the season. No excuses this year though - he really needs to be bolder. and put his stamp on the team
-
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky not to mention he had almost a year prep didn't he?
Perhaps his laptop crashed and he lost his PowerPoint files
-
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t know why people can’t comprehend that just picking 15 new players isn’t a good idea
Nice straw man argument. Who has suggested 15 new players?
My point more generally, is in my opinion, people are going overboard. The All Blacks issues are personnel problems, particularly in the loose forwards. We lack a big enforcer… we are crying out for a player like Harry Wilson. We lack an elite first five… McKenzie isn’t that, but he is probably the best we have - there’s no depth either.
We’re talking about fine margins here, and at the moment we don’t have the solutions… switching Ioane for Billy Proctor for example, in my opinion, wouldn’t make a difference, but if it did, it would be minimal.
Trying new players in certain positions probably makes us worse - not better.
Barring injuries, of the ABs XV who played France, is there anyone obvious who moves the needle on that team? Ruben Love is another example here. Might he be a good option if Jordan is to play on the wing? Maybe, but he hasn’t shown a level at Super Rugby to suggest he is a world-beater.
I couldn't disagree with this post more. We absolutely have the personnel, our problems are poor game plans and poor on-field decision making, which is a coaching problem. We could have beaten SA in SA, and France in France, but we threw those games away with poor tactics and decisions.
Did we? Or were we just beaten by better sides away from home? The All Blacks have come back to the pack having been clear for years, because our top-end talent is not as superior as it once was. Where 10 year ago a World XV would probably include 8 or 9 ABs, it might now includes 3 or 4, so naturally we aren't going to win every game. Poor on-field decision making (particularly discipline) is an example of these players not being quite as good.
You can rate McKenzie all you like, but he is not the standard of elite 10 that has been the hallmark of the ABs. This version of DMac doesn't even make the squad for the 2015 RWC IMO. I'm not suggesting this makes him bad, but the ABs used to win a lot of games because we had a freak at 10 who could dig us out of holes.
You can rate Akira Ioane all you like, but he is not the same level as a Jerome Kaino or even Liam Squire for those couple of seasons around the Lions Tour.
And can people make their minds up on whether they rate Rieko? He is both really good and really shit it seems, is it tactics, or is it his ability?
-
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t know why people can’t comprehend that just picking 15 new players isn’t a good idea
Nice straw man argument. Who has suggested 15 new players?
My point more generally, is in my opinion, people are going overboard. The All Blacks issues are personnel problems, particularly in the loose forwards. We lack a big enforcer… we are crying out for a player like Harry Wilson. We lack an elite first five… McKenzie isn’t that, but he is probably the best we have - there’s no depth either.
We’re talking about fine margins here, and at the moment we don’t have the solutions… switching Ioane for Billy Proctor for example, in my opinion, wouldn’t make a difference, but if it did, it would be minimal.
Trying new players in certain positions probably makes us worse - not better.
Barring injuries, of the ABs XV who played France, is there anyone obvious who moves the needle on that team? Ruben Love is another example here. Might he be a good option if Jordan is to play on the wing? Maybe, but he hasn’t shown a level at Super Rugby to suggest he is a world-beater.
I couldn't disagree with this post more. We absolutely have the personnel, our problems are poor game plans and poor on-field decision making, which is a coaching problem. We could have beaten SA in SA, and France in France, but we threw those games away with poor tactics and decisions.
Did we? Or were we just beaten by better sides away from home? The All Blacks have come back to the pack having been clear for years, because our top-end talent is not as superior as it once was. Where 10 year ago a World XV would probably include 8 or 9 ABs, it might now includes 3 or 4, so naturally we aren't going to win every game. Poor on-field decision making (particularly discipline) is an example of these players not being quite as good.
You can rate McKenzie all you like, but he is not the standard of elite 10 that has been the hallmark of the ABs. This version of DMac doesn't even make the squad for the 2015 RWC IMO. I'm not suggesting this makes him bad, but the ABs used to win a lot of games because we had a freak at 10 who could dig us out of holes.
You can rate Akira Ioane all you like, but he is not the same level as a Jerome Kaino or even Liam Squire for those couple of seasons around the Lions Tour.
And can people make their minds up on whether they rate Rieko? He is both really good and really shit it seems, is it tactics, or is it his ability?
The Akira bit is the problem. And it's the same deal with Sotutu.
These guys are clear standouts at our level directly below test, and have the physical attributes to do the same at test level. If you have a team stacked full of Carter, McCaw, Nonu etc, then you can afford to not select some of these players - but when we don't happen to have all of the best players in the world at once, then you need to manage it competently and get the best out of your best potential players. We are not doing that, we are discarding them or not selecting them at all, and replacing them with guys who are mid-tier glue at best. Same with picking Taylor when he was playing shit and Taukeiaho was playing the house down. Foster keeping our old-arse props around until they deselect themselves through injury etc. Discarding Luatua. Now, Fihaki from out of nowhere? Bell?On McKenzie - yeah he's not Carter, but who of the teams who beat us have a Carter? Bloody none of them.
Also I'm not a Blues guy, so maybe I'm remembering it wrong - but didn't they beat the Lions with Akira being MOTM?
-
@reprobate yep, for a while now we have hung on to some far too long, which impacts the next level.
Not to mention trying to get players to play a different way that doesn't utilise thier strengths.
I mean we know Laumape had his issues, but we ignored him and then tried to get Goodhue and the atbtimes, Havili play how Laumape was best suited for.
If you ain't gonna select Laumape, then don't utilise a game plan that would be ideal for him.
Seems both Fozzie and Razor had/have a game plan, which may well be good, but they seem to be picking players that don't necessarily fit it properly, instead, getting players to play a style that isn't as natural.
-
@taniwharugby Yeah, I mean it's inevitable that you're going to lose some players when you have dominant Nonu class players who are the best for a decade, there's just not opportunity there because nobody is as good as him. But holding on to guys who are getting outplayed is terrible for morale, people hate not being selected on merit and they will leave.
Then you have coaches with too much ego who clash with players instead of recognising that their job is to get the best out of those players, and if they aren't able to do that then they aren't very good at their job - they are the problem. As exemplified by Hammett at the Hurricanes, and that astonishing Doncic trade in the NBA.
Then as you say, the shoe-horn. Havili as a battering ram? Rieko too. Barrett as a 6. Jordie as a winger. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t know why people can’t comprehend that just picking 15 new players isn’t a good idea
Nice straw man argument. Who has suggested 15 new players?
My point more generally, is in my opinion, people are going overboard. The All Blacks issues are personnel problems, particularly in the loose forwards. We lack a big enforcer… we are crying out for a player like Harry Wilson. We lack an elite first five… McKenzie isn’t that, but he is probably the best we have - there’s no depth either.
We’re talking about fine margins here, and at the moment we don’t have the solutions… switching Ioane for Billy Proctor for example, in my opinion, wouldn’t make a difference, but if it did, it would be minimal.
Trying new players in certain positions probably makes us worse - not better.
Barring injuries, of the ABs XV who played France, is there anyone obvious who moves the needle on that team? Ruben Love is another example here. Might he be a good option if Jordan is to play on the wing? Maybe, but he hasn’t shown a level at Super Rugby to suggest he is a world-beater.
I couldn't disagree with this post more. We absolutely have the personnel, our problems are poor game plans and poor on-field decision making, which is a coaching problem. We could have beaten SA in SA, and France in France, but we threw those games away with poor tactics and decisions.
Did we? Or were we just beaten by better sides away from home? The All Blacks have come back to the pack having been clear for years, because our top-end talent is not as superior as it once was. Where 10 year ago a World XV would probably include 8 or 9 ABs, it might now includes 3 or 4, so naturally we aren't going to win every game. Poor on-field decision making (particularly discipline) is an example of these players not being quite as good.
You can rate McKenzie all you like, but he is not the standard of elite 10 that has been the hallmark of the ABs. This version of DMac doesn't even make the squad for the 2015 RWC IMO. I'm not suggesting this makes him bad, but the ABs used to win a lot of games because we had a freak at 10 who could dig us out of holes.
You can rate Akira Ioane all you like, but he is not the same level as a Jerome Kaino or even Liam Squire for those couple of seasons around the Lions Tour.
And can people make their minds up on whether they rate Rieko? He is both really good and really shit it seems, is it tactics, or is it his ability?
The Akira bit is the problem. And it's the same deal with Sotutu.
These guys are clear standouts at our level directly below test, and have the physical attributes to do the same at test level. If you have a team stacked full of Carter, McCaw, Nonu etc, then you can afford to not select some of these players - but when we don't happen to have all of the best players in the world at once, then you need to manage it competently and get the best out of your best potential players. We are not doing that, we are discarding them or not selecting them at all, and replacing them with guys who are mid-tier glue at best. Same with picking Taylor when he was playing shit and Taukeiaho was playing the house down. Foster keeping our old-arse props around until they deselect themselves through injury etc. Discarding Luatua. Now, Fihaki from out of nowhere? Bell?On McKenzie - yeah he's not Carter, but who of the teams who beat us have a Carter? Bloody none of them.
Also I'm not a Blues guy, so maybe I'm remembering it wrong - but didn't they beat the Lions with Akira being MOTM?
Akita was dominant in 2017-2018. Don't let Southerners tell you otherwise.
-
I think continuity and player development can be equally important and in some ways both sides of the same coin. Taylor came good after the coaches kept faith in him and the same can be said for Vaa'i. Clearly the coaching staff saw something there and persisted.
That's not to disagree with your point on getting the best out of players, actually playing them and not discarding them - that's bang on. I've lost count of the number of 2-3 Test AB's we've discarded in recent years.
-
@Victor-Meldrew I know what you are saying, but Vaai and Taylor were different, Vaai was a talented youngster that hadnt found his feet, Taylor was an experienced player, and a young player was playing vastly better, yet they persisted with Taylor, yes he came good, but his form was not helpful to our overall game...I mean it was almost like eventually they played the form out of Samisoni....
-
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t know why people can’t comprehend that just picking 15 new players isn’t a good idea
Nice straw man argument. Who has suggested 15 new players?
My point more generally, is in my opinion, people are going overboard. The All Blacks issues are personnel problems, particularly in the loose forwards. We lack a big enforcer… we are crying out for a player like Harry Wilson. We lack an elite first five… McKenzie isn’t that, but he is probably the best we have - there’s no depth either.
We’re talking about fine margins here, and at the moment we don’t have the solutions… switching Ioane for Billy Proctor for example, in my opinion, wouldn’t make a difference, but if it did, it would be minimal.
Trying new players in certain positions probably makes us worse - not better.
Barring injuries, of the ABs XV who played France, is there anyone obvious who moves the needle on that team? Ruben Love is another example here. Might he be a good option if Jordan is to play on the wing? Maybe, but he hasn’t shown a level at Super Rugby to suggest he is a world-beater.
I couldn't disagree with this post more. We absolutely have the personnel, our problems are poor game plans and poor on-field decision making, which is a coaching problem. We could have beaten SA in SA, and France in France, but we threw those games away with poor tactics and decisions.
Did we? Or were we just beaten by better sides away from home? The All Blacks have come back to the pack having been clear for years, because our top-end talent is not as superior as it once was. Where 10 year ago a World XV would probably include 8 or 9 ABs, it might now includes 3 or 4, so naturally we aren't going to win every game. Poor on-field decision making (particularly discipline) is an example of these players not being quite as good.
You can rate McKenzie all you like, but he is not the standard of elite 10 that has been the hallmark of the ABs. This version of DMac doesn't even make the squad for the 2015 RWC IMO. I'm not suggesting this makes him bad, but the ABs used to win a lot of games because we had a freak at 10 who could dig us out of holes.
You can rate Akira Ioane all you like, but he is not the same level as a Jerome Kaino or even Liam Squire for those couple of seasons around the Lions Tour.
And can people make their minds up on whether they rate Rieko? He is both really good and really shit it seems, is it tactics, or is it his ability?
No chance there are 3-4 ABs in a World XV. I am not even sure there is one.
Considering Colin Slade was the 3rd 10 in that squad, i am pretty sure DMac is on the plane.
Liam Squire was just another in a long line of average blindsides who made a name for himself beating up the Aussies and the shit versions of Argentina.
But i agree with your overall point, we can't keep looking at 2015. That is arguably the single greatest national team of all time, packed with players who are not only in the conversation for a NZ all-time XV, but an anywhere all-time XV (and oh look, South Africa still took us to the brink). Other teams have better players now.
That doesn't excuse the quality of play we put on last year, or the names that are repeatedly selected despite proving themselves to be not up to standard, simply because the next cab off the rank is not a perfect player with zero flaws in their game.
And whoever the attack coach is can get in the bin. -
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t know why people can’t comprehend that just picking 15 new players isn’t a good idea
Nice straw man argument. Who has suggested 15 new players?
My point more generally, is in my opinion, people are going overboard. The All Blacks issues are personnel problems, particularly in the loose forwards. We lack a big enforcer… we are crying out for a player like Harry Wilson. We lack an elite first five… McKenzie isn’t that, but he is probably the best we have - there’s no depth either.
We’re talking about fine margins here, and at the moment we don’t have the solutions… switching Ioane for Billy Proctor for example, in my opinion, wouldn’t make a difference, but if it did, it would be minimal.
Trying new players in certain positions probably makes us worse - not better.
Barring injuries, of the ABs XV who played France, is there anyone obvious who moves the needle on that team? Ruben Love is another example here. Might he be a good option if Jordan is to play on the wing? Maybe, but he hasn’t shown a level at Super Rugby to suggest he is a world-beater.
I couldn't disagree with this post more. We absolutely have the personnel, our problems are poor game plans and poor on-field decision making, which is a coaching problem. We could have beaten SA in SA, and France in France, but we threw those games away with poor tactics and decisions.
Did we? Or were we just beaten by better sides away from home? The All Blacks have come back to the pack having been clear for years, because our top-end talent is not as superior as it once was. Where 10 year ago a World XV would probably include 8 or 9 ABs, it might now includes 3 or 4, so naturally we aren't going to win every game. Poor on-field decision making (particularly discipline) is an example of these players not being quite as good.
You can rate McKenzie all you like, but he is not the standard of elite 10 that has been the hallmark of the ABs. This version of DMac doesn't even make the squad for the 2015 RWC IMO. I'm not suggesting this makes him bad, but the ABs used to win a lot of games because we had a freak at 10 who could dig us out of holes.
You can rate Akira Ioane all you like, but he is not the same level as a Jerome Kaino or even Liam Squire for those couple of seasons around the Lions Tour.
And can people make their minds up on whether they rate Rieko? He is both really good and really shit it seems, is it tactics, or is it his ability?
No chance there are 3-4 ABs in a World XV. I am not even sure there is one.
Considering Colin Slade was the 3rd 10 in that squad, i am pretty sure DMac is on the plane.
Liam Squire was just another in a long line of average blindsides who made a name for himself beating up the Aussies and the shit versions of Argentina.
But i agree with your overall point, we can't keep looking at 2015. That is arguably the single greatest national team of all time, packed with players who are not only in the conversation for a NZ all-time XV, but an anywhere all-time XV (and oh look, South Africa still took us to the brink). Other teams have better players now.
That doesn't excuse the quality of play we put on last year, or the names that are repeatedly selected despite proving themselves to be not up to standard, simply because the next cab off the rank is not a perfect player with zero flaws in their game.
Hey, remember you were telling us Jordie Barrett is an inferior midfielder to SA's ones & the top NH teams and now he's left Super Rugby and is measured up against those guys every week it's so blatantly obvious how good he is & would stroll into starting 12 of a World XV.
If anything, NZ fans are guilty of hugely underrating our talent because of the trauma stemming from the Foster era.
-
he is inferior
-
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
I don’t know why people can’t comprehend that just picking 15 new players isn’t a good idea
Nice straw man argument. Who has suggested 15 new players?
My point more generally, is in my opinion, people are going overboard. The All Blacks issues are personnel problems, particularly in the loose forwards. We lack a big enforcer… we are crying out for a player like Harry Wilson. We lack an elite first five… McKenzie isn’t that, but he is probably the best we have - there’s no depth either.
We’re talking about fine margins here, and at the moment we don’t have the solutions… switching Ioane for Billy Proctor for example, in my opinion, wouldn’t make a difference, but if it did, it would be minimal.
Trying new players in certain positions probably makes us worse - not better.
Barring injuries, of the ABs XV who played France, is there anyone obvious who moves the needle on that team? Ruben Love is another example here. Might he be a good option if Jordan is to play on the wing? Maybe, but he hasn’t shown a level at Super Rugby to suggest he is a world-beater.
I couldn't disagree with this post more. We absolutely have the personnel, our problems are poor game plans and poor on-field decision making, which is a coaching problem. We could have beaten SA in SA, and France in France, but we threw those games away with poor tactics and decisions.
Did we? Or were we just beaten by better sides away from home? The All Blacks have come back to the pack having been clear for years, because our top-end talent is not as superior as it once was. Where 10 year ago a World XV would probably include 8 or 9 ABs, it might now includes 3 or 4, so naturally we aren't going to win every game. Poor on-field decision making (particularly discipline) is an example of these players not being quite as good.
You can rate McKenzie all you like, but he is not the standard of elite 10 that has been the hallmark of the ABs. This version of DMac doesn't even make the squad for the 2015 RWC IMO. I'm not suggesting this makes him bad, but the ABs used to win a lot of games because we had a freak at 10 who could dig us out of holes.
You can rate Akira Ioane all you like, but he is not the same level as a Jerome Kaino or even Liam Squire for those couple of seasons around the Lions Tour.
And can people make their minds up on whether they rate Rieko? He is both really good and really shit it seems, is it tactics, or is it his ability?
No chance there are 3-4 ABs in a World XV. I am not even sure there is one.
Considering Colin Slade was the 3rd 10 in that squad, i am pretty sure DMac is on the plane.
Liam Squire was just another in a long line of average blindsides who made a name for himself beating up the Aussies and the shit versions of Argentina.
But i agree with your overall point, we can't keep looking at 2015. That is arguably the single greatest national team of all time, packed with players who are not only in the conversation for a NZ all-time XV, but an anywhere all-time XV (and oh look, South Africa still took us to the brink). Other teams have better players now.
That doesn't excuse the quality of play we put on last year, or the names that are repeatedly selected despite proving themselves to be not up to standard, simply because the next cab off the rank is not a perfect player with zero flaws in their game.
Hey, remember you were telling us Jordie Barrett is an inferior midfielder to SA's ones & the top NH teams and now he's left Super Rugby and is measured up against those guys every week it's so blatantly obvious how good he is & would stroll into starting 12 of a World XV.
If anything, NZ fans are guilty of hugely underrating our talent because of the trauma stemming from the Foster era.
Keep in mind Jordie is playing in inferior competitions. SA SR sides used to get regularly bent over and now they've run away to an inferior competition (URC) they're now more successful.
They still have some handy 12s.
-
I love it how people bring up Kaino (as he was in 2008 - 2015 ) but ignore 2004 - 2006.
They rabbit on about Nonu (as he was in 2011 - 2015), but seem to forget him from 2003 - 2007.
How about some identification of the players who have the capability to be consistently in World XVs and then some patience and coaching while we get them there? -
@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2025:
@Steven-Harris said in All Blacks 2025:
richie mounga a more resent example
I'll assume that's a typo.
