ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?
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@Kiwiwomble said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@SBW1 dont have 40mins to listen, who?
#BooBoo
@Mr-Fish said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:Joey Manu?
Dumb.
And I'd say who is he? If he plays in Japan for two years, then comes back to NZ and joins SR he'll be following the last sucessful League AB, SBW
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More possible good news from France, salary cap reduction
Billionaire Top 14 club owner calls for 'drastic' change to salary cap as meeting looms
Racing 92 owner Jacky Lorenzetti has called for 'drastic' change to the Top 14 salary cap ahead of a scheduled meeting later this month.
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@Machpants said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
More possible good news from France, salary cap reduction
Racing 92 owner Jacky Lorenzetti has called for 'drastic' change to the Top 14 salary cap ahead of a scheduled meeting later this month.
Heretic that can't be taken seriously: he criticised Siya ... !!
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@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Bones I am not sure what your stats means. If you want to create depth you will get knock over. Rassie brought 50+ players through and had 2 close losses. The Springboks will pull away .
Wriggle wriggle.
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@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
The Springboks will pull away .
It’s interesting, I was looking at the profile of the current Springbok overseas players and it’s noticeable how they’re all experienced, senior players. Of the originally selected November touring squad, the 13 overseas players averaged 56 test caps, with an average age of 31.
That’s interesting because when Rassie first started in 2018, the overseas influence was often made up of inexperienced but highly promising players who, more importantly, were playing in some of the best-coached teams in Europe. In the 2018 Rugby Championship, there was Vincent Koch, with only 9 caps and coached by Mark McCall at Saracens, there was Faf de Klerk with 14 caps who was at Sale Sharks where he worked with renowned kicking coach Jon Callard, and a young Cheslin Kolbe was plucked out of high-performing Toulouse to make his Springbok debut.
Fast forward 6 years and where are the overseas Springboks playing? Urayasu D-Rocks, Honda Heat, Shizuoka Blue Revs... You see where I’m going with this. Look at the current top 6 teams in the Top 14: Toulouse, Bordeaux Bègles, La Rochelle, Bayonne, Toulon, and Clermont. At these 6 clubs combined, a total of 6 South Africans can be found (Carlu Sadie and Rohan Janse van Rensburg at UBB; Raymond Rhule and Dillyn Leyds at Stade Rochelais; Pieter Scholtz and Uzair Cassiem at Bayonne). It seems very unlikely that any of them will feature for the Springboks in the future. 6 years ago, these total numbers would be unthinkable. In the 2018/19 Top14 and Pro D2 seasons, across these 6 clubs (Bayonne was in the second division at the time), 16 South African players could be found, more than twice as many. Furthermore, these players were often much younger at the time, like Wiaan Liebenberg (26), Rynhardt Elstadt (27) and the aforementioned Kolbe (23). Of the six South Africans in these teams today, only Carlu Sadie is younger than 30 (27).
The reason for this seems relatively clear. South African players and especially young South African players, just aren’t that attractive a prospect anymore for high-performing European squads, due to their eligibility for their national team. Racing 92 dumped Kolisi after a single season when it became clear that his performances for them and those for the Springboks were of a totally different level. Saracens, their success basically built on South African players, currently have a grand total of 1 South African player, 29-year old Ivan van Zyl. This year’s Champions Cup Final had one South African across the 46 players, 1-cap fringe Springbok Jason Jenkins.
Again, I’m not claiming the coming demise of the Springboks but to me, it also seems quite clear that the market reality of 2018 when the eligibility rules were opened and the market reality of 2024 are markedly different for South African players. Where are the young promising South Africans in Europe who are benefiting from different high-performance environments, like Kolbe and de Klerk did when they left South Africa? Someone like Steven Kitshoff benefited greatly from his two seasons at Bordeaux before returning to South Africa, Esterhuizen became a different player playing alongside Marcus Smith in the all-attack system at Harlequins. The Springboks reaped the rewards (while, to be clear, obviously also doing their own part in the development of these players). There doesn’t seem to be an equivalent available in the coming years.
The introduction of overseas players for the Springboks wasn’t just a money thing, it also reintroduced valuable IP into the team, like Duane Vermeulen and Willie le Roux who had been experienced voices in big European teams. But when the best teams in Europe are seemingly uninterested in getting the best young South African players, where exactly is this IP going to come from? Might be interesting to contemplate those things some more. I’m sure that Rassie is more than aware of it.
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@Mauss said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
The Springboks will pull away .
It’s interesting, I was looking at the profile of the current Springbok overseas players and it’s noticeable how they’re all experienced, senior players. Of the originally selected November touring squad, the 13 overseas players averaged 56 test caps, with an average age of 31.
That’s interesting because when Rassie first started in 2018, the overseas influence was often made up of inexperienced but highly promising players who, more importantly, were playing in some of the best-coached teams in Europe. In the 2018 Rugby Championship, there was Vincent Koch, with only 9 caps and coached by Mark McCall at Saracens, there was Faf de Klerk with 14 caps who was at Sale Sharks where he worked with renowned kicking coach Jon Callard, and a young Cheslin Kolbe was plucked out of high-performing Toulouse to make his Springbok debut.
Fast forward 6 years and where are the overseas Springboks playing? Urayasu D-Rocks, Honda Heat, Shizuoka Blue Revs... You see where I’m going with this. Look at the current top 6 teams in the Top 14: Toulouse, Bordeaux Bègles, La Rochelle, Bayonne, Toulon, and Clermont. At these 6 clubs combined, a total of 6 South Africans can be found (Carlu Sadie and Rohan Janse van Rensburg at UBB; Raymond Rhule and Dillyn Leyds at Stade Rochelais; Pieter Scholtz and Uzair Cassiem at Bayonne). It seems very unlikely that any of them will feature for the Springboks in the future. 6 years ago, these total numbers would be unthinkable. In the 2018/19 Top14 and Pro D2 seasons, across these 6 clubs (Bayonne was in the second division at the time), 16 South African players could be found, more than twice as many. Furthermore, these players were often much younger at the time, like Wiaan Liebenberg (26), Rynhardt Elstadt (27) and the aforementioned Kolbe (23). Of the six South Africans in these teams today, only Carlu Sadie is younger than 30 (27).
The reason for this seems relatively clear. South African players and especially young South African players, just aren’t that attractive a prospect anymore for high-performing European squads, due to their eligibility for their national team. Racing 92 dumped Kolisi after a single season when it became clear that his performances for them and those for the Springboks were of a totally different level. Saracens, their success basically built on South African players, currently have a grand total of 1 South African player, 29-year old Ivan van Zyl. This year’s Champions Cup Final had one South African across the 46 players, 1-cap fringe Springbok Jason Jenkins.
Again, I’m not claiming the coming demise of the Springboks but to me, it also seems quite clear that the market reality of 2018 when the eligibility rules were opened and the market reality of 2024 are markedly different for South African players. Where are the young promising South Africans in Europe who are benefiting from different high-performance environments, like Kolbe and de Klerk did when they left South Africa? Someone like Steven Kitshoff benefited greatly from his two seasons at Bordeaux before returning to South Africa, Esterhuizen became a different player playing alongside Marcus Smith in the all-attack system at Harlequins. The Springboks reaped the rewards (while, to be clear, obviously also doing their own part in the development of these players). There doesn’t seem to be an equivalent available in the coming years.
The introduction of overseas players for the Springboks wasn’t just a money thing, it also reintroduced valuable IP into the team, like Duane Vermeulen and Willie le Roux who had been experienced voices in big European teams. But when the best teams in Europe are seemingly uninterested in getting the best young South African players, where exactly is this IP going to come from? Might be interesting to contemplate those things some more. I’m sure that Rassie is more than aware of it.
Food for thought
But with many SA players competing against the best of Ireland and Scotland on a regular basis and the best of France and England in the European cup competitions arguably there are more SA players exposed to European rugby now than there were previously
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@MiketheSnow said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Food for thought
But with many SA players competing against the best of Ireland and Scotland on a regular basis and the best of France and England in the European cup competitions arguably there are more SA players exposed to European rugby now than there were previously
Absolutely. And I'm sure that this offers plenty of positives in its own right.
But my point was more around the experience of different coaching environments and team cultures at some of the best Champions Cup teams (none of the South African sides can be classified as such right now). At the moment, most young South African rugby players seem quite content to be staying at their franchises for their development. Or maybe they aren't as aggressively pursued as they once were.
Either way, it remains to be seen whether that's a good or a bad thing. But the point stands that the market situation has drastically changed and things haven't really evolved in a way that was particularly foreseeable in 2018.
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@Mauss said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
particularly foreseeable in 2018.
I think we do ourselves a disservice in this discussion if we use 2018 as a baseline date when discussing the Boks. 2018 was just SA reversing their one year decision to slightly tighten up overseas eligibility rules. In 2017 they put in a 30 cap minimum, which they reversed in 2018 back to their original policy of select anyone.
The Boks are good at the moment, but, they haven't been good the entirety of the time they've selected from overseas. For most of that time we've been beating them.
The Boks haven't unlocked a secret formula, they're just riding high at the moment. Additionally Ireland have been riding high the last few years by copying a model very similar to NZs.
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@Mauss South Africa rugby structure haven't change. But the importance of our lowest level changed a lot. Our top rugby schools is much more mixed race the before. Schoolboy rugby have a lot more media exposure via Super Schools. Rugby schools in Boland get double applications to what they can take in, ext. Meaning the factory is running on double speed compare to 2018. We struggle to get the Currie Cup calendar right which bring the below franchise rugby through. This year they got it right. Rassie use the CC to keep his Springboks for TRC match fit.
RG Snyman play for Leinster, Kleyn for Munster, Pollard and Wiese for Leicester. Rassie have been at Munster.
They would never been the players/coaches if it wasn't for that experience
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@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
the factory is running on double speed compare to 2018
Listen, I know more than enough about the rugbyfabriek. It was a great song in the ‘80s, I’m sure you can add a few verses for the game today and make another catchy tune (don’t know what rhymes with Griquas, though).
But this whole “the factory is running at double speed”-thing, I don’t find that particularly convincing. If that were truly the case, why aren’t we seeing more of its results? The state of SA Rugby outside of the Springboks isn’t looking particularly rosy. Age grade teams like SA Schools and SA U20 have struggled in recent years. The Currie Cup is filled with journeymen professionals who will never advance beyond that level. Meanwhile, the Blitzboks can’t find the new Senatla’s and Specman’s. The URC sides are good if unspectacular. Not particular signs of a system that is overproducing quality players.
The examples of Pollard, Kleyn and Snyman are arguments for my point, not yours (Wiese is no longer at Leicester, by the way, he plays for the Urayasu D-Rocks now, a Div 2 Japan side). Kleyn left South Africa when he was 23. He developed much of his professional game in Munster. He even played for Ireland before the Springboks. Snyman left in 2017 as a 22-year old, first to Japan, and then in 2020 to Munster. Pollard first left in 2015 for Japan as a 21-year old, then came back to SA and left again in 2020 at 26 for Montpellier.
All of these players left in their early to mid-twenties, developing further overseas and becoming better Springboks, as you say. But the current South African players in their early to mid-20s all seem to be staying. Guys like Henco van Wyk, Mpilo Gumede, Vincent Tshituka, David Kriel, Corne Rahl, Wandisile Simelane, are sticking around rather than moving abroad to some of the best high-performance environments. The recent one exception seems to be Asenathi Ntlabakanye, who is rumoured to be going to Toulouse. But big tighthead props, especially humongous ones like Ntlabakanye, remain their weight worth in gold in the Top14. The rest seem to be valued more like copper than gold at the moment.
But these others, sticking around in die Rugbyfabriek, are still taking a risk with their development. Because, like with any factory, overproduction is a sin. Commodities lose their value and they are destroyed in order to restore market value. And before you know it, Schuster’s song is no longer a light-hearted tune but a cautionary ballad, on the perils of sticking around too long when you really should be going.
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@Mauss said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
the factory is running on double speed compare to 2018
Listen, I know more than enough about the rugbyfabriek. It was a great song in the ‘80s, I’m sure you can add a few verses for the game today and make another catchy tune (don’t know what rhymes with Griquas, though).
But this whole “the factory is running at double speed”-thing, I don’t find that particularly convincing. If that were truly the case, why aren’t we seeing more of its results? The state of SA Rugby outside of the Springboks isn’t looking particularly rosy. Age grade teams like SA Schools and SA U20 have struggled in recent years. The Currie Cup is filled with journeymen professionals who will never advance beyond that level. Meanwhile, the Blitzboks can’t find the new Senatla’s and Specman’s. The URC sides are good if unspectacular. Not particular signs of a system that is overproducing quality players.
The examples of Pollard, Kleyn and Snyman are arguments for my point, not yours (Wiese is no longer at Leicester, by the way, he plays for the Urayasu D-Rocks now, a Div 2 Japan side). Kleyn left South Africa when he was 23. He developed much of his professional game in Munster. He even played for Ireland before the Springboks. Snyman left in 2017 as a 22-year old, first to Japan, and then in 2020 to Munster. Pollard first left in 2015 for Japan as a 21-year old, then came back to SA and left again in 2020 at 26 for Montpellier.
All of these players left in their early to mid-twenties, developing further overseas and becoming better Springboks, as you say. But the current South African players in their early to mid-20s all seem to be staying. Guys like Henco van Wyk, Mpilo Gumede, Vincent Tshituka, David Kriel, Corne Rahl, Wandisile Simelane, are sticking around rather than moving abroad to some of the best high-performance environments. The recent one exception seems to be Asenathi Ntlabakanye, who is rumoured to be going to Toulouse. But big tighthead props, especially humongous ones like Ntlabakanye, remain their weight worth in gold in the Top14. The rest seem to be valued more like copper than gold at the moment.
But these others, sticking around in die Rugbyfabriek, are still taking a risk with their development. Because, like with any factory, overproduction is a sin. Commodities lose their value and they are destroyed in order to restore market value. And before you know it, Schuster’s song is no longer a light-hearted tune but a cautionary ballad, on the perils of sticking around too long when you really should be going.
Love your work
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Former All Blacks boss Sir Steve Hansen has sounded a warning to New Zealand Rugby about potentially changing their overseas policy.
Shag weighs in. He had me until he tried to convince me the Japanese league is great by offering the form of Ardie and Beaudy as evidence
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@OomPB Kwas and Griquas, makes sense. I should've known that a language as phonetically malleable as Afrikaans would have no issues with it.
Didn't know Mannetjies Roux played for Griquas (Griqualand West) back in the day. Something to be proud of.
