All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham
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@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@MiketheSnow That's asking a whole lot of the forwards who are positioned there. All of the potential playmakers - both Barretts and Will Jordan - are on the right hand side. On the left you have Savea, Cane, Lomax, Williams, Sititi and Clarke. They're also in no discernable shape to execute the overlap.
Kiwi forwards are skilled but if you're expecting them to pull off a backline move on their own, then I think you may be expecting a bit too much from them.
When you have either of or both Savea and Sititi running into space that will attract more than one defender
And you have Clarke to run it in if he's given space and time
Demonstrably better than the choice they made IMHO
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@MiketheSnow We'll have to agree to disagree, Mike!
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@reprobate haven’t forensically looked at the off the ball shots from Sat like you and @booboo
but in real time they looked like a continuation of a tactic you were using during the RC.
Takes out the cleaners (sacrificing someone who likely isn’t going get to/be effective in the breakdown) and gives your jacklers an easier shot at the ball. Earned you a few holding penalties against us.
The Irish were also doing it in our series. So wouldn’t be surprised if this came up as something the officials needed to focus on.
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@MiketheSnow That's asking a whole lot of the forwards who are positioned there. All of the potential playmakers - both Barretts and Will Jordan - are on the right hand side. On the left you have Savea, Cane, Lomax, Williams, Sititi and Clarke. They're also in no discernable shape to execute the overlap.
Kiwi forwards are skilled but if you're expecting them to pull off a backline move on their own, then I think you may be expecting a bit too much from them.
When you have either of or both Savea and Sititi running into space that will attract more than one defender
And you have Clarke to run it in if he's given space and time
Demonstrably better than the choice they made IMHO
Still need someone to take the pass and redistribute each time - the first five players are Ardie, Cane, Lomax, Williams and Sititi.
No way every one of them is going to be in position to do so at the speed required.
Plus they'll all want (correctly) to be available to clean out should the picture change/move break down at any point.
Not happening Mike.
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
The correct call in your second example was to go the other way - open - there’s already a 6 on 5 mismatch in favour of the ABs and plenty of turf
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
The correct call in your second example was to go the other way - open - there’s already a 6 on 5 mismatch in favour of the ABs and plenty of turf
If that chip gets through, Tele'a scores in the corner...
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@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Just saw the ABs IV game. How good is that jersey??? Much better than the ABs.
Do you have a ling please ?
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@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
The correct call in your second example was to go the other way - open - there’s already a 6 on 5 mismatch in favour of the ABs and plenty of turf
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
The correct call in your second example was to go the other way - open - there’s already a 6 on 5 mismatch in favour of the ABs and plenty of turf
If that chip gets through, Tele'a scores in the corner...
Maybe so but is it the percentage option? If ball in hand will also likely result in the same outcome but has a greater chance of success.....
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@cgrant said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Just saw the ABs IV game. How good is that jersey??? Much better than the ABs.
Do you have a ling please ?
My AI is not working well. Please read "Link", of course.
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@Catogrande said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
The correct call in your second example was to go the other way - open - there’s already a 6 on 5 mismatch in favour of the ABs and plenty of turf
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
The correct call in your second example was to go the other way - open - there’s already a 6 on 5 mismatch in favour of the ABs and plenty of turf
If that chip gets through, Tele'a scores in the corner...
Maybe so but is it the percentage option? If ball in hand will also likely result in the same outcome but has a greater chance of success.....
Furry muff.
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I would rather not get to the point we need 10% kicks to go our way to score.
A big reason we were dominant for SO long is our attack was SO effective and at the same time EXTREMELY repeatable.
Draw and pass, offload when it's clearly on, square the defender etc etc.
I think with the popularity of league-style defences for the past ten years, the kicking game has become more and more of a necessity. Look at the top halves in the NRL: Cleary, Luai, Munster, Hughes aren’t just great distributors who can create mismatches and put players through the gap, they’re very accurate kickers as well, with a vast range of kicks at their disposal. Without the kick, it would be incredibly hard to score a try in league.
As props, hookers and locks become more mobile in rugby as well, it’ll become harder and harder to break the line through simple mismatches. Even the Will Jordan try (where the missed tackle by Genge, the England loosehead prop, caused the linebreak) was the result of elaborate deception, where the All Blacks had set up two 'fake' pods as if to continue on the openside only for Barrett to make a late switch to the blind in order to isolate Genge. Nothing about that is just draw and pass, that is a complex strike move from lineout across 3 phases, just so they could get past a loosehead prop who is a very good defender in his own right.
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@cgrant said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@cgrant said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Just saw the ABs IV game. How good is that jersey??? Much better than the ABs.
Do you have a ling please ?
My AI is not working well. Please read "Link", of course.
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Sorry I’m late to this thread, decent game, good atmosphere, ABs looked lethal in parts, England looked clunky but powerful. Should have won it with 15 mins to go or whatever it was but did what we’ve been doing and shut up shop. Our bench is not as strong as our starting XV, and changing all of them at roughly the same time, particularly forwards is moronic.
Think bringing Smith off for Ford so early given how little rugby Ford has played was stupid. Randall shouldn’t be near the test side either. Hi hum another opportunity missed.
Hoping we get up with the same intensity on Saturday against the Aussies
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Sititi is a brilliant selection by Razor he was Hugh again.
That leg injury to Niggles which opened the door to Sititi was inspired.
Yep absolutely Brilliant.Of course Razor did pick him in the squad at the start of the year when a lot of people said why, not a great selection he is too raw etc.
"Lot of people?" Sititi was a stand-out in SR so really not a hard choice. It was the selection of Christie at 9 and Havili in the backline and the selection of Mr "Always Injured" over Sotutu that people criticised.
Had Christie not been injured and Roigard returned so quickly, we'd likely still be having TJP/Christie/Ratima discussions/moans for this match.
I agree, if anything people questioned the auto selection of Ardie over Sotutu and were pleasantly surprised by the selection of Sititi, which proved an excellent choice by the coaches.
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I was trying to have a link to the full game. Sorry.
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@Smuts said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate haven’t forensically looked at the off the ball shots from Sat like you and @booboo
but in real time they looked like a continuation of a tactic you were using during the RC.
Takes out the cleaners (sacrificing someone who likely isn’t going get to/be effective in the breakdown) and gives your jacklers an easier shot at the ball. Earned you a few holding penalties against us.
The Irish were also doing it in our series. So wouldn’t be surprised if this came up as something the officials needed to focus on.
Not cleaners from my point of view mate, these are dummy runners in line with the ball-carrier. They can't clean quickly anyway because they'd be offside?
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Current Borthwick strategy reminds me much of Lancaster’s tenure when there was a statistical, by the numbers, replacement plan. Stats say replace front row at 60m, scrum half at 65m and fly half at 70m to close it out.
Just fuck office with your stats and manage what is actually happening in front of you.
Oh and don’t go back to that useless lump Ewels whose last game saw him carded within seconds of coming on and who has done fuck all in a white jersey despite all his opportunities. The guy must train like Jesus, but he plays like Elmer Fudd.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I know there’s a lot of criticism on this forum towards the incessant turn to kicking by Barrett in this game, but, rewatching the game, I’d argue that the kick-option was the right choice a lot of the time, but it was Barrett’s mixed execution of his kicks which led to mixed outcomes. Charlie Morgan of The Telegraph already highlighted this example around the first minute of the game. Barrett, following an over the top lineout win by Savea, receives the pass around the halfway line and puts up a great wipers kick. The kick is regathered by Telea, who offloads to Ioane, leading to a linebreak and the England defence in disarray. Several Abs have realigned to the openside and this is the picture:
Caleb Clarke, who is out of frame here, is the target for the cross kick. Taylor and Savea are on his inside with only George Furbank covering the English backfield (Marcus Smith is all the way on the opposite side, with 14 English players being bunched up within 20 metres from each other).
What saves England is Itoje’s chargedown of Barrett’s kick, with Barrett probably needing to be just a little bit further back in order to avoid the oncoming rush defence.
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
It is nice to have some actual rugby talked. I'm late to the party, but am definitely a critic of kicking the ball away. That first pic is a clear overlap, and I reckon kicking it away is criminal. As per others, McKenzie makes the wide pass and we either score or are hot on attack still with possession. The solution is not Barrett standing deeper and being more telegraphed in kicking away attacking possession, it's having a passer at first receiver.
The 2nd pic, we are hot on attack on their 22. The best option isn't kicking the ball away, it's keeping ball in hand and attacking - save the 'might score in a single phase but more likely will lose possession' kick for when you have a penalty advantage. The grubber didn't work because as they often do, it hit something. A chip may well have been marked - they often are. And that freeze frame I think would look pretty damn similar to one in the 75th minute just prior to the game tying try, with McKenzie instead of Barrett and Jordan instead of Ioane - if anything there are less defenders here - and that's without considering the space on the open.Look at how we scored our tries: Sititi offloads to Telea. Jordan runs a great line off a Barrett switch. The disallowed one for the deliberate knock-on, passing beating the man. McKenzie hitting Jordan on his outside shoulder freeing Telea up just enough. By contrast, most of our 'clever' kicks simply turned over possession. You can of course argue that with better implementation that wouldn't be the case - but I reckon we've seen more than enough to know that these are not high-percentage plays for us.
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@Smuts said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate haven’t forensically looked at the off the ball shots from Sat like you and @booboo
but in real time they looked like a continuation of a tactic you were using during the RC.
Takes out the cleaners (sacrificing someone who likely isn’t going get to/be effective in the breakdown) and gives your jacklers an easier shot at the ball. Earned you a few holding penalties against us.
The Irish were also doing it in our series. So wouldn’t be surprised if this came up as something the officials needed to focus on.
Hardly forensic, but to my mind two of the incidents were effectively guys just standing their ground.
Whoever suggested it is like a charging foul in BB was pretty much bang on.
Defenders should not be required to get out of the road.
And whilst I agree about how the "tackle" takes out cleaners, demanding free passage for them creates an unfair advantage as they are a runner with a mandated gap, as well as a potential ruck winner.
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Not sure if posted yet: https://x.com/derekalberts1/status/1852997703271137744
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Though I would argue that hands will beat them on that first fucking frame.
One wide pass and they are fucked, we're behind them with numbers. The kick pass adds too many variables
first thing that struck me too, just flash it wide, we had them out numbered.
