B&I Lions 2017
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@Tregaskis Yeah fair point re MacQueen's Wallabies, although ageing and past it's best, it was still good side.
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@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Catogrande said in B&I Lions 2017:
@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Catogrande said in B&I Lions 2017:
Mate, that is somewhat disingenuous. The time they were appointed bears no comparison to the time they had with their players. Dear old Ted has his issues alright with players leaving, retiring, loss of form etc but so does every international coach. You just cannot compare coaching a national side to the Lions. Not quite apples and oranges but certainly cookers and eaters.
They without doubt are unique challenges. Each cycle is different. Woodward dwells on the challenges that he believes he faced as is his right, but I disagree with the premise that the All Blacks were the unstoppable juggernaut that they subsequently became as that series began.
When both coaches were appointed the bookmakers and pundits saw this as a very close series - one the Lions would have been favored in on a neutral field. The All Blacks set up really was in that much turmoil, moving onto their third coach in four years, fifth captain in six years. You can't underestimate the work it took to move expectations from there - to what the Lions press seem to concede was one of the better sides of all time in just 18 months.
Woodward saw his job as being relatively easy remember. He even mentions in his article - he had an all reigning, all conquering World Champion English side and they just needed a few Irish and Welsh players to put them over the top. He had the reigns of that English team and torpedoed them following 2003, then poorly integrated the Welsh/Irish contingent.
If we are talking about Hansen vs Gatland this time around I would completely agree though. Hansen has had 14 years of smooth sailing, has been planning for this tour in some capacity for 4 years and aside from a hiccup in Chicago has been invincible for two years now including a World Cup - literally everything is in his favour. This was not the case in 2005.
Well, as I said "'Dear old Ted has his issues alright with players leaving, retiring, loss of form etc ". I acknowledge that Henry had his issues, but his issues were so far away from Woodward's issues. For sure he handled his issues a lot better, but let's remember that Ted had many of the same issues that Woodward did in the Lions tour in 2001 and he didn't come up trumps. Yeah 2-1 is better than 3-zip and the individual matches were a lot closer but that was against an ageing Wallaby side rather than a NZ side that had won 11 out of the last 13 matches under Henry. That's not a shabby record and does not indicate a team in turmoil. to compare the two is just pointless.
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Sorry I just don't see having 18 months to prepare a team for the Lions from ground zero as being a significantly easier than preparing the Lions in 8 months with a World Champion team to start with....Well the times quoted are not significant as Woodward (or any other Lions coach) does not have 8 months to prepare his squad. He has those 8 months to consider who might be in his squad. The reality is that he has only a few weeks to prepare his squad of players, many of whom have never played together. Henry hardly started at Ground Zero either. he inherited a squad that was already up and running and added to and tinker with that squad.
Any Lions coach has a very short time to sort out a squad of players from different countries, that often play totally different styles. He does not have any input into the strength and conditioning of those players nor does he get the chance have any tactical input until practically the last minute.
if you really think that the jobs of being a National coach and being a Lions coach are in any way comparable you might just look at Woodward's record in each job as an example.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
The next tour is going to be under new global agreement in 2021 against South Africa. Who knows where South African rugby will be at that stage. The revised touring schedule with tours moved to July was immediately gobbled up by the English Premiership clubs saying they were moving their final to the end of June and saying they were still going to start the season in September. As a bone-headed move following at least some element of sensible re-ordering of the global season, this takes some beating. At least, the PRO12 intends to shorten their league season, start later and finish sooner (well so far they've said that, but let's see what the English and French clubs decide to do with the European Cup).
I hadn't heard that mate but it's all too believable. Madess if it happens.
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Visited planet rugby to see the reaction to that long article linked to here today, best post was from an English poster.
"Woodward really should take the psychopath test. I bet he'd find that rather than being a once in a lifetime visonary genius, he's actually sat naked eating shit out of an ice-cream tub in front of his fridge full of fannies."
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Liins team announcement this evening around 9/10pm Irish time apparently.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
Liins team announcement this evening around 9/10pm Irish time apparently.
I suppose it won't matter what the time is in Scotland.
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@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
Liins team announcement this evening around 9/10pm Irish time apparently.
I suppose it won't matter what the time is in Scotland.
A small wager that all three will be in Saturday's team?
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
Liins team announcement this evening around 9/10pm Irish time apparently.
I suppose it won't matter what the time is in Scotland.
A small wager that all three will be in Saturday's team?
Won't matter. The sweaties have all forgotten about it anyway.
But yes, could be the case.
Gatland may want to play as many first stringers as possible in this game to give them time during the week to train for the Crusaders game. He certainly won't want a Saturday loss early on the tour.
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Lions 2005: Inside the Lions den is on at the moment on Sky UK.
Interesting watching, especially a lot of what would now be considered old school dealing with players.
Keep getting glimpses of this orange guy called Gavin that looks like an overgrown Oompa Loompa. -
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
Liins team announcement this evening around 9/10pm Irish time apparently.
I suppose it won't matter what the time is in Scotland.
A small wager that all three will be in Saturday's team?
Won't matter. The sweaties have all forgotten about it anyway.
But yes, could be the case.
Gatland may want to play as many first stringers as possible in this game to give them time during the week to train for the Crusaders game. He certainly won't want a Saturday loss early on the tour.
On the other hand he may want to go with my selection.....
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
Liins team announcement this evening around 9/10pm Irish time apparently.
I suppose it won't matter what the time is in Scotland.
A small wager that all three will be in Saturday's team?
Won't matter. The sweaties have all forgotten about it anyway.
But yes, could be the case.
Gatland may want to play as many first stringers as possible in this game to give them time during the week to train for the Crusaders game. He certainly won't want a Saturday loss early on the tour.
On the other hand he may want to go with my selection.....
Will you be naming the team each Wednesday? That will really upset things.
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Nah - I've told Gatty (best mates already) that I won't spoil his fun.
He's gone with my advice to get all the players out on the paddock by Game Three - that's good enough for me. I'll let him take it from there - you have to let these guys stand on their own feet at some stage.....
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I just noticed that Ollie Jager - formerly of this parish - is in the NZ Baa-Baas squad as TH prop.
Wonder if he'll get a game. He played with Garry Ringrose in the Schools Cup-winning team for Blackrock a few years ago.
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@Pot-Hale how is Gatland though of in Ireland after coaching there?
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@jegga said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale how is Gatland though of in Ireland after coaching there?
Anyone I would talk to in rugby in my age group wouldn't even think about him as a former Ireland coach, to be honest. Too long ago. He'd probably be more remembered for his comments about Welsh players hating Irish players priot to a 6N match a few years ago which didn't work out too well for him, and his non-selection of O'Driscoll for the Lions in 2013.
But I could care less. He's a spiky kind of guy - the world is made up of all sorts. At the end of the day, it's results that count in his business.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
Anyone I would talk to in rugby in my age group wouldn't even think about him as a former Ireland coach, to be honest. Too long ago. He'd probably be more remembered for his comments about Welsh players hating Irish players priot to a 6N match a few years ago which didn't work out too well for him, and his non-selection of O'Driscoll for the Lions in 2013.
Speaking of Gatland and O'Driscoll...
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One thing I think is very noticeable in difference between 2005 and what I have seen so far is the knowledge about NZ that Gatland has added.
The response to the powhiri was good and confident. In 2005 A handful of Lions looked very uncomfortable and almost giggled through a rendition of Bread of Heaven.
Gaining a bit of respect off the field will help a lot with the on field performances. -
