B&I Lions 2017
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I get it.. you guys don't want to hear any NH view that doesn't tie in with your own. No problem.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@wowrp1 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Frye said in B&I Lions 2017:
Fair point. Could have had most of the squad in NZ this weekend just gone.
Guess they had important things to do together like a photo shoot of everyone about to get on the plane.
..which is dictated by the marketing team that is the Lions organisation, not the choice of the players or the coaches.
Poppycock!
Gatland asked for extra players and got them. If he wanted to arrive earlier I'm sure he could have asked.
I think the issue was more to do with the domestic season and an expectation of having less players available than he actually did. He probably thought it wasn't worth it.
In retrospect he could have come earlier.Precisely. . Retrospect and Hindsight are comfortable bed-fellows. Hansen's on a bit of wind-up being all clever and wise after the fact.
Of course he is. Gatland is in for far more sly comments than that, especially if he starts throwing some of his own.
The easiest stone to throw is that Gatland should know all about coping with midweek matches given that he was a career dirt-tracker himself.
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@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@wowrp1 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Frye said in B&I Lions 2017:
Fair point. Could have had most of the squad in NZ this weekend just gone.
Guess they had important things to do together like a photo shoot of everyone about to get on the plane.
..which is dictated by the marketing team that is the Lions organisation, not the choice of the players or the coaches.
Poppycock!
Gatland asked for extra players and got them. If he wanted to arrive earlier I'm sure he could have asked.
I think the issue was more to do with the domestic season and an expectation of having less players available than he actually did. He probably thought it wasn't worth it.
In retrospect he could have come earlier.Precisely. . Retrospect and Hindsight are comfortable bed-fellows. Hansen's on a bit of wind-up being all clever and wise after the fact.
Of course he is. Gatland is in for far more sly comments than that, especially if he starts throwing some of his own.
The easiest stone to throw is that Gatland should know all about coping with midweek matches given that he was a career dirt-tracker himself.
Ooh - I like that one.
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@MiketheSnow said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@MiketheSnow said in B&I Lions 2017:
Another take on 2005
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40069682
Woodward pissed on his own parade and he obviously learned a lot from Alistair Campbell because he's not man enough to admit his failings.
You mean besides admitting - recently - that he wasn't the right coach for the tour?
Sir Clive Woodward reveals what went wrong for Lions during NZ tour of 2005
Woodward says that he lost his ruthless streak when the Lions travelled to the southern hemisphere 12 years ago
Hardly an admission of wrong selections, wrong tour organisation, etc etc (as in the article I referenced).
You don't lose a series 3-0 because one non-English player doesn't toe the party line.
Playing Jones at 10 and Wilkinson at 12 when they never trained together would be a good start.
I was more following the premise that if he now admits he shouldn't have been on the tour as coach, well all the shit flows downhill from there......
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@Guest said in B&I Lions 2017:
I get it.. you guys don't want to hear any NH view that doesn't tie in with your own. No problem.
I love hearing NH views that tie in with my own. Unfortunately, yours doesn't. If you've got something to say, get a screen name and join in.
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@Guest said in B&I Lions 2017:
I get it.. you guys don't want to hear any NH view that doesn't tie in with your own. No problem.
More than happy to read other views. However, if I have a different opinion I will say so. That's how this thing works.
If everyone just posted what they thought and no one debated it the forum would be pointless.
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@MiketheSnow said in B&I Lions 2017:
Another take on 2005
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40069682
Woodward pissed on his own parade and he obviously learned a lot from Alistair Campbell because he's not man enough to admit his failings.
What a fascinating article - I look forward to hearing the radio production, thanks for sharing.
Seemingly every few years when he is asked about this he has a different take on how we would have done it differently - last time it was base the team in Australia and fly over for the tests!
The most curious thing in the article is how Woodward bemoans what an impossible task it is to convene the Lions against a NZ side that play year in year out (among a litany of other hurdles he lists).
Woodward was appointed Lions coach in February 2004. Henry was appointed All Blacks coach December 2003. Looking at the prospects for those roles come Lions tour I don't think one had a clear advantage. Ted essentially had one season to prepare for the Lions all while picking up the pieces from another RWC loss, changing captains and capping 11+ players etc. Honestly most of the rebuilding was done on the EOYT when McCaw returned, Carter moved to 10, Mehrts and Marshall moved on etc.
There were also massive advantages for Woodward trying to bringing three nations together over a series of warm up fixtures vs bringing five franchises together with one test against Fiji. The Lions squad was also significantly more experienced at test level as they had four nations to cap players and we only had two! The ABs also had untried key combinations going into that series too, Marshall and Carter had played 4 minutes against Fiji together at test level and hardly at all at Super level.
History has not been kind to Woodward.
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Woodward doesn't really do himself any favours with the nonsense he spouts. For example
"I could easily replicate in cricket what I've done in rugby - or football, or any sport," he told Wisden Cricketer magazine.
In his defence 76-0 is a score you'd associate more with cricket I guess.
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@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
@MiketheSnow said in B&I Lions 2017:
Another take on 2005
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40069682
Woodward pissed on his own parade and he obviously learned a lot from Alistair Campbell because he's not man enough to admit his failings.
What a fascinating article - I look forward to hearing the radio production, thanks for sharing.
Agreed
Seemingly every few years when he is asked about this he has a different take on how we would have done it differently - last time it was base the team in Australia and fly over for the tests!He is unlikely to say he was wrong in his handling of the tour, that is not his style. He has said that in retrospect he was maybe the wrong type of coach for the Lions gig. And he was right.
The most curious thing in the article is how Woodward bemoans what an impossible task it is to convene the Lions against a NZ side that play year in year out (among a litany of other hurdles he lists).
Woodward was appointed Lions coach in February 2004. Henry was appointed All Blacks coach December 2003. Looking at the prospects for those roles come Lions tour I don't think one had a clear advantage. Ted essentially had one season to prepare for the Lions all while picking up the pieces from another RWC loss, changing captains and capping 11+ players etc. Honestly most of the rebuilding was done on the EOYT when McCaw returned, Carter moved to 10, Mehrts and Marshall moved on etc.
Mate, that is somewhat disingenuous. The time they were appointed bears no comparison to the time they had with their players. Dear old Ted has his issues alright with players leaving, retiring, loss of form etc but so does every international coach. You just cannot compare coaching a national side to the Lions. Not quite apples and oranges but certainly cookers and eaters.
There were also massive advantages for Woodward trying to bringing three (four actually,) nations together over a series of warm up fixtures vs bringing five franchises together with one test against Fiji. The Lions squad was also significantly more experienced at test level as they had four nations to cap players and we only had two! The ABs also had untried key combinations going into that series too, Marshall and Carter had played 4 minutes against Fiji together at test level and hardly at all at Super level.
Hmm. Really?
History has not been kind to Woodward.
Agreed. And he doesn't always help himself in this respect -
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There are 2 separate issues IMO.
- the schedule
- the itinerary
The schedule, as in getting here half a week before the first game. That's the Lions unions own issue.
The itinerary. It's hard, hardest ever I agree. But the choice is between hard or too soft. There's no 'just right ' option available in NZ anymore. The provinces can't cope anymore, that level is hollowed out.
But I do believe the hardness of the itinerary is over blown. There's an easy beat scratch team first up followed by the weakest NZ super franchise. The NZ Moari are also a scratch team so have no cohesion advantage over the Lions.
But there aren't easy games. The midweek team will have to contribute, which is why this tour is a bigger deal than an average tour.
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@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
What a fascinating article - I look forward to hearing the radio production, thanks for sharing.
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@Catogrande said in B&I Lions 2017:
Mate, that is somewhat disingenuous. The time they were appointed bears no comparison to the time they had with their players. Dear old Ted has his issues alright with players leaving, retiring, loss of form etc but so does every international coach. You just cannot compare coaching a national side to the Lions. Not quite apples and oranges but certainly cookers and eaters.
They without doubt are unique challenges. Each cycle is different. Woodward dwells on the challenges that he believes he faced as is his right, but I disagree with the premise that the All Blacks were the unstoppable juggernaut that they subsequently became as that series began.
When both coaches were appointed the bookmakers and pundits saw this as a very close series - one the Lions would have been favored in on a neutral field. The All Blacks set up really was in that much turmoil, moving onto their third coach in four years, fifth captain in six years. You can't underestimate the work it took to move expectations from there - to what the Lions press seem to concede was one of the better sides of all time in just 18 months.
Woodward saw his job as being relatively easy remember. He even mentions in his article - he had an all reigning, all conquering World Champion English side and they just needed a few Irish and Welsh players to put them over the top. He had the reigns of that English team and torpedoed them following 2003, then poorly integrated the Welsh/Irish contingent.
If we are talking about Hansen vs Gatland this time around I would completely agree though. Hansen has had 14 years of smooth sailing, has been planning for this tour in some capacity for 4 years and aside from a hiccup in Chicago has been invincible for two years now including a World Cup - literally everything is in his favour. This was not the case in 2005.
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@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Catogrande said in B&I Lions 2017:
Mate, that is somewhat disingenuous. The time they were appointed bears no comparison to the time they had with their players. Dear old Ted has his issues alright with players leaving, retiring, loss of form etc but so does every international coach. You just cannot compare coaching a national side to the Lions. Not quite apples and oranges but certainly cookers and eaters.
They without doubt are unique challenges. Each cycle is different. Woodward dwells on the challenges that he believes he faced as is his right, but I disagree with the premise that the All Blacks were the unstoppable juggernaut that they subsequently became as that series began.
When both coaches were appointed the bookmakers and pundits saw this as a very close series - one the Lions would have been favored in on a neutral field. The All Blacks set up really was in that much turmoil, moving onto their third coach in four years, fifth captain in six years. You can't underestimate the work it took to move expectations from there - to what the Lions press seem to concede was one of the better sides of all time in just 18 months.
Woodward saw his job as being relatively easy remember. He even mentions in his article - he had an all reigning, all conquering World Champion English side and they just needed a few Irish and Welsh players to put them over the top. He had the reigns of that English team and torpedoed them following 2003, then poorly integrated the Welsh/Irish contingent.
If we are talking about Hansen vs Gatland this time around I would completely agree though. Hansen has had 14 years of smooth sailing, has been planning for this tour in some capacity for 4 years and aside from a hiccup in Chicago has been invincible for two years now including a World Cup - literally everything is in his favour. This was not the case in 2005.
Well, as I said "'Dear old Ted has his issues alright with players leaving, retiring, loss of form etc ". I acknowledge that Henry had his issues, but his issues were so far away from Woodward's issues. For sure he handled his issues a lot better, but let's remember that Ted had many of the same issues that Woodward did in the Lions tour in 2001 and he didn't come up trumps. Yeah 2-1 is better than 3-zip and the individual matches were a lot closer but that was against an ageing Wallaby side rather than a NZ side that had won 11 out of the last 13 matches under Henry. That's not a shabby record and does not indicate a team in turmoil. to compare the two is just pointless.
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For all the reminiscing and rehashing of things, this tour is likely to be "the last great rugby tour" as I heard someone describe it recently.
It's against New Zealand for starters.
It's against a lot of tough sides crammed into a short space of time. No room for the faint-hearted.
It's a Mission Improbable yet everyone will watch just to see if the improbable could become possible - outside of NZ anyway.
The next tour is going to be under new global agreement in 2021 against South Africa. Who knows where South African rugby will be at that stage. The revised touring schedule with tours moved to July was immediately gobbled up by the English Premiership clubs saying they were moving their final to the end of June and saying they were still going to start the season in September. As a bone-headed move following at least some element of sensible re-ordering of the global season, this takes some beating. At least, the PRO12 intends to shorten their league season, start later and finish sooner (well so far they've said that, but let's see what the English and French clubs decide to do with the European Cup).
With that grabbing of the empty space in June, there will now be concerted calls to shorten the Lions tour to 7-8 matches, to provide some prep time in-country before the tour starts.
Eventually, it's possible that by the time NZ's turn rolls around again, there'll have been a decision to just do some prep-time and have a three-test series.
So I for one, will watch this one with even greater interest.
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Even under current season structure; all it would take to free up an extra week for a Lions year is for the 4 home unions to come to an agreement with the 2 leagues to have 1 midweek round at some stage during the season.
Put a midweek round somewhere in the Xmas/NY holiday season.
Job done.
They have big squads, big enough to player League during international windows. They could cope with that.
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Am keen to see how Maro Itoje goes. There has been so much hype in England about him, however to me he seems to more concerned with ruck inspecting, guard-dog duty with the occasional spot tackle thrown in rather than actually moving bodies, cleaning out successfully then getting up getting to the next ruck and doing it all again..
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@Rapido said in B&I Lions 2017:
Even under current season structure; all it would take to free up an extra week for a Lions year is for the 4 home unions to come to an agreement with the 2 leagues to have 1 midweek round at some stage during the season.
Put a midweek round somewhere in the Xmas/NY holiday season.
Job done.
They have big squads, big enough to player League during international windows. They could cope with that.
Yep sounds easy to say. Not all teams could cope well with a midweek match given some have greater depth than others.
The point of the changes to the PRO12 from 2018/19 onwards is the target date is to take matches out of international windows. And for European Cup to be done in Dec and Jan up to quarter-finals if possible by bumping the Six Nations forward a week (or shortening it as the RFU/PRL/LNR want to do).
It's still a power game between English and French clubs and the Unions.
