B&I Lions 2017
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Only a week and a half out from the Lions squad announcement, but because we all know Gatland will get it wrong and pick too many Welsh, here's what I would do.
Squad of 38, two XVs plus one full bench. That gives 6 props, 3 hookers, 5 locks, 7 looses, 3 scrumhalves, 3 fly halves, 4 centres, 6 back three and 1 utility back.
My feeling is that the Lions need to walk a difficult tightrope. I think they need to select players who will be able to cope with the pace and skill of the game in New Zealand, but not try to play them at their own game in terms of jackling at the breakdown and unstructured back play. Based on the Ireland and France games in the Autumn, I think the All Blacks might be more susceptible to large quantities of dynamic forward carriers and a backrow that blasts past the ball at the ruck.
Props: Vunipola, McGrath, Healy, Furlong, Nel, Sinkler
Hookers: Best (c), George, Owens
Locks: Kruis, Itoje, Launchbury, Wyn-Jones, R. Gray
Backrow: Stander, O'Mahoney, Robshaw, O'Brien, Haskell, Vunipola, FaletauScrumhalves: Murray, Webb, Youngs
Flyhalves: Sexton, Ford, Russell
Centres: Farrell, Henshaw, Joseph, Ringrose
Wings: North, Visser, Watson, Williams
Fullbacks: Hogg, Carbery
Utility: Daly -
@SimonAdd_2 Surely Warburton goes? Or is he injured again? I don't see either Haskell or Robshaw as no.7s so would be happy if a player like Tipiric misses out.
Are you picking Carbery as your bolter? I have heard Maitland mentioned again as he is playing well for Saracens.
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@Bovidae I don't see much point picking guys like Warburton and Tipuric, who are the best in the NH at the traditional openside role but we already know are nowhere near their SH counterparts. I'd prefer to do what Eddie Jones has done with England and pick ruck-clearers like O'Brien and Haskell at openside and just smash the breakdown. Robshaw and O'Mahoney give a different look on the blindside. It's not what I expect Gatland to do, but this is my team dammit. 😊
Similar deal at fullback. Halfpenny, Brown and Kearney are all well past their best as attacking threats and unlike if we were playing South Africa or even Australia, I don't think the All Blacks will use the high ball as a major weapon. So Carbery makes it in as a bolter, and Williams, Watson and Daly can all cover 15 too.
I don't think Maitland is close I'm afraid. Loads of wings who offer more, and even for Scotland I'd have Visser and Seymour above him.
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@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Bovidae I don't see much point picking guys like Warburton and Tipuric, who are the best in the NH at the traditional openside role but we already know are nowhere near their SH counterparts. I'd prefer to do what Eddie Jones has done with England and pick ruck-clearers like O'Brien and Haskell at openside and just smash the breakdown. Robshaw and O'Mahoney give a different look on the blindside. It's not what I expect Gatland to do, but this is my team dammit. 😊
Similar deal at fullback. Halfpenny, Brown and Kearney are all well past their best as attacking threats and unlike if we were playing South Africa or even Australia, I don't think the All Blacks will use the high ball as a major weapon. So Carbery makes it in as a bolter, and Williams, Watson and Daly can all cover 15 too.
I don't think Maitland is close I'm afraid. Loads of wings who offer more, and even for Scotland I'd have Visser and Seymour above him.
I get your reasoning Simon, but Warburton is going to travel and likely captain too, I think.
They've been talking about a squad of 37 up to now, but I don't see why Gatland doesn't add in a couple because there are going to be injuries before the first test.
I like your squad nonetheless and Carbery is a definite bolter candidate and at 21 would get the stuffed lion carrying duties.Rather than try pick the test team, I look at a squad to see what the good midweek side would be and who would be captain. The captain needs to be a warhorse, been there, done that and no expectation of making the test side. Who would you pick?
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@Pot-Hale yeah, fully expect Warburton to be captain but I think it's a mistake. How many times has he played New Zealand and Australian teams and come up short against his opposite number? The Lions are never going to beat the All Blacks on the floor, our best just aren't good enough in that area. It's not just a Welsh thing either, I wouldn't pick the Scottish flankers like John Barclay and Hamish Watson (who I rate quite highly) for the same reason.
As for the captains, from my squad above I'd have Best for the Test side and Robshaw for the midweek team.
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I should clarify that I while I would select Warburton in my squad I wouldn't have him as captain. I've always thought he was better suited to no.6 so would play him there with O'Brien at 7. I guess the loose forward mix will depend on how Gatland wants to play.
Robshaw might be a good choice as midweek captain. I hope the refs have earplugs.
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@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Bovidae I don't see much point picking guys like Warburton and Tipuric, who are the best in the NH at the traditional openside role but we already know are nowhere near their SH counterparts. I'd prefer to do what Eddie Jones has done with England and pick ruck-clearers like O'Brien and Haskell at openside and just smash the breakdown. Robshaw and O'Mahoney give a different look on the blindside. It's not what I expect Gatland to do, but this is my team dammit. 😊
Similar deal at fullback. Halfpenny, Brown and Kearney are all well past their best as attacking threats and unlike if we were playing South Africa or even Australia, I don't think the All Blacks will use the high ball as a major weapon. So Carbery makes it in as a bolter, and Williams, Watson and Daly can all cover 15 too.
I don't think Maitland is close I'm afraid. Loads of wings who offer more, and even for Scotland I'd have Visser and Seymour above him.
About the kicking thing, the ABs definitely use the high ball a lot. Same pattern with most of the NZ Super Rugby sides again this year.
You will definitely need a fullback with good aerial skills, probably at least one of the wingers too.
Remember reading somewhere that we kick more than any of the other top teams.
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@Kirwan yea I think it was bought up before the 2015 EOYT how much we kicked it, which was in fact more than any other team, just cos we score more tries than anyone else, is easily overlooked
Having accurate kicks, with good chases (Smith, Dagg) to pressure the defence plays a decent part in what we do, I dont recall a huge shift away from kicking last year.
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@taniwharugby To my mind it has been that way for a whlle now. Why it doesn't always seem so apparent though is likely because your boys do both the kick and the chase so effectively and then it almost gets forgotten due to what inevitably comes straight after.
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@Kirwan I know the All Black's kick a lot but my perception has been that they tend to kick longer to force the opposition to kick it back therefore creating counter-attacks and broken field situations, rather than midfield or cross-field bombs like, say, the 2009-era Boks. Happy to be wrong on that though.
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@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale yeah, fully expect Warburton to be captain but I think it's a mistake. How many times has he played New Zealand and Australian teams and come up short against his opposite number? The Lions are never going to beat the All Blacks on the floor, our best just aren't good enough in that area. It's not just a Welsh thing either, I wouldn't pick the Scottish flankers like John Barclay and Hamish Watson (who I rate quite highly) for the same reason.
As for the captains, from my squad above I'd have Best for the Test side and Robshaw for the midweek team.
I like your theory @SimonAdd_2 except putting all your planning eggs in this basket could also prove to be fatal.
Reason being that all it would take is for the refs to clamp down on players blowing past the ruck, taking out defenders or diving over the ball and you'd be left with nothing else. Leave that job for the locks and front row and have your loose forwards play as loose forwards. Securing or slowing the ball is the key.
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@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Kirwan I know the All Black's kick a lot but my perception has been that they tend to kick longer to force the opposition to kick it back therefore creating counter-attacks and broken field situations, rather than midfield or cross-field bombs like, say, the 2009-era Boks. Happy to be wrong on that though.
We are doing bombs from our 22, from everywhere basically. And Ben Smith gets a high percentage of them back.
Also doing a lot of kick passes into space across the field.
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@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale yeah, fully expect Warburton to be captain but I think it's a mistake. How many times has he played New Zealand and Australian teams and come up short against his opposite number? The Lions are never going to beat the All Blacks on the floor, our best just aren't good enough in that area. It's not just a Welsh thing either, I wouldn't pick the Scottish flankers like John Barclay and Hamish Watson (who I rate quite highly) for the same reason.
As for the captains, from my squad above I'd have Best for the Test side and Robshaw for the midweek team.
I like your theory @SimonAdd_2 except putting all your planning eggs in this basket could also prove to be fatal.
Reason being that all it would take is for the refs to clamp down on players blowing past the ruck, taking out defenders or diving over the ball and you'd be left with nothing else. Leave that job for the locks and front row and have your loose forwards play as loose forwards. Securing or slowing the ball is the key.
I'm not suggesting we try to gain an illegal advantage by taking players out etc (at least no more than normal). I'm just saying that rather than try to scrabble on the floor against superior New Zealand opensides, the Lions would be better off securing the ball by clearing out, counter-rucking and generally driving over the ball.
See Haskell versus Pooper in Australia last year, or the Irish back row in November.
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@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Bovidae I don't see much point picking guys like Warburton and Tipuric, who are the best in the NH at the traditional openside role but we already know are nowhere near their SH counterparts. I'd prefer to do what Eddie Jones has done with England and pick ruck-clearers like O'Brien and Haskell at openside and just smash the breakdown. Robshaw and O'Mahoney give a different look on the blindside. It's not what I expect Gatland to do, but this is my team dammit. 😊
Similar deal at fullback. Halfpenny, Brown and Kearney are all well past their best as attacking threats and unlike if we were playing South Africa or even Australia, I don't think the All Blacks will use the high ball as a major weapon. So Carbery makes it in as a bolter, and Williams, Watson and Daly can all cover 15 too.
I don't think Maitland is close I'm afraid. Loads of wings who offer more, and even for Scotland I'd have Visser and Seymour above him.
We can forget it if Warburton doesn't go and Robshaw and Visser do
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@MiketheSnow I think openside is going to be one of the more problematical areas for Gatland. I'm not sure that we have a 7 that can compete with Cane in being a scavenger and perhaps only Tipuric that could compete with Savea in being a wide ranging link man. Warburton would be the closest we have to competing with Cane, however I can see @Bovidae point of view that maybe we need to look at competing in a different way. If so that would mean either O'Brien or Haskell at 7 - and O'Brien would get the nod for me. I would quite like to see SOB at 7 and Warburton at 6.
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@Catogrande said in B&I Lions 2017:
@MiketheSnow I think openside is going to be one of the more problematical areas for Gatland. I'm not sure that we have a 7 that can compete with Cane in being a scavenger and perhaps only Tipuric that could compete with Savea in being a wide ranging link man. Warburton would be the closest we have to competing with Cane, however I can see @Bovidae point of view that maybe we need to look at competing in a different way. If so that would mean either O'Brien or Haskell at 7 - and O'Brien would get the nod for me. I would quite like to see SOB at 7 and Warburton at 6.
With Billy at 8?
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@Bones I bow to your superior knowledge as I haven't seen much of either Cane or Savea. What I have seen of Savea though (admittedly not a lot more than a cameo), was him zipping all over the park, popping up everywhere and carrying in the wider channels. Cane and a comparison to a latter day McCaw would be good enough for me!
