B&I Lions 2017
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You begin to wonder is there any point in the Lions travelling really.
Can't score, can't run, no attack - all they can do is defend. Why do they even bother playing the game?
Stuffed shopping bags in search of a trolley.
What a headline. 10/10.
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@Pot-Hale for the love of the game?
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@taniwharugby said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale for the love of the game?
Hmmmm.....
Nah.
Anything else? -
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@taniwharugby said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale for the love of the game?
Hmmmm.....
Nah.
Anything else?Southern seas holiday?
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@canefan said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@taniwharugby said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale for the love of the game?
Hmmmm.....
Nah.
Anything else?Southern seas holiday?
In fucking winter??
With you lot of grousers for company, I presume? -
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@canefan said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@taniwharugby said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale for the love of the game?
Hmmmm.....
Nah.
Anything else?Southern seas holiday?
In fucking winter??
With you lot of grousers for company, I presume?It's not like the NH winter; it won't be snowing for starters. It is one of the highest honours for a home nations player to come down and get their arse handed to them in NZ isn't it?
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@canefan said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@canefan said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@taniwharugby said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale for the love of the game?
Hmmmm.....
Nah.
Anything else?Southern seas holiday?
In fucking winter??
With you lot of grousers for company, I presume?It's not like the NH winter; it won't be snowing for starters. It is one of the highest honours for a home nations player to come down and get their arse handed to them in NZ isn't it?
It hasn't snowed round these parts for years. Snowflakes are sooo yesterday in modern Ireland.
Talking of which, enough of the "Home" Nations guff. It's Britain and Ireland. And we can mind our own arses, thank you very much.
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Has anyone spotted any stabs at the touring party following the last round?
Very, very interesting set up following the Irish victory. Streak aside, on balance I think Ireland have the best claims over the past 6-12 months to dominate this squad and the XV.
English fans may want to hear that, but if these fixtures were structured in a different way and the Italy/Ireland performances were weeks 1 and 2 - I think they get less of a rub going into June.
Scotland over-performed in the 6N, Ireland have the English and ABs scalp, England just equalled a world record streak and Gats has to show some loyalty to "his guys". So an interesting selection upcoming.
Even more interesting the Lions squad is probably coached by the 4th best coach of the lot, although still not a poor one but with a questionable back room. In hindsight perhaps reuiniting a Schmidt/Cotter ticket would have me a bit more worried.
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@rotated It will be interesting as Gatland has to go back to his day job of coaching Wales after the tour. Will he risk losing the dressing room in the same way Henry did after the 2001 Lions? This is the problem if your own boys aren't dining at the top table within the squad.
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@Pot-Hale it fucking snowed there last month!
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@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
Has anyone spotted any stabs at the touring party following the last round?
Very, very interesting set up following the Irish victory. Streak aside, on balance I think Ireland have the best claims over the past 6-12 months to dominate this squad and the XV.
English fans may want to hear that, but if these fixtures were structured in a different way and the Italy/Ireland performances were weeks 1 and 2 - I think they get less of a rub going into June.
Scotland over-performed in the 6N, Ireland have the English and ABs scalp, England just equalled a world record streak and Gats has to show some loyalty to "his guys". So an interesting selection upcoming.
Even more interesting the Lions squad is probably coached by the 4th best coach of the lot, although still not a poor one but with a questionable back room. In hindsight perhaps reuiniting a Schmidt/Cotter ticket would have me a bit more worried.
There was a pile of them in the Sunday Times yesterday. The Walrus wouldn't even take Hogg on tour because apparently you don't want an attacking player
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Can't find many others and can#t get to the ST ones (paywall)
There will be some interesting puzzles to solve which may or may not affect the squad selection though.
Captain: Gatland has come out and said that his tour captain is not guaranteed a starting test spot. I can see what he is getting at, not wanting anyone to get a free ride and not wanting one group to instantly feel they don't have a chance at playing. But this is an odd one. For me he needs to pick a leader with a 90%+ chance of starting the tests. Warburton fits the bill.
Game management: It won't be a case of simply picking a prospective test team then filling out the numbers. Given the high calibre of the mid week games and the schedule he almost needs to take 46 players and split them although this has been a disaster in the past. I don't know the official squad size but have seen comment of around 37. This will mean that the Saturday team reserves will need to back up on the Tuesdays.
Making selection decisions that don't alienate parts of the team on grounds of country. For example if I was him Hartley wouldn't be on the tour. Gatland has to balance up taking a player that is captain of the 'top team' yet not the best in his position. If he relegates him to mid week captain, what does that do to morale of the England players? Hartley is a starter or not there IMO.
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@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
Has anyone spotted any stabs at the touring party following the last round?
Very, very interesting set up following the Irish victory. Streak aside, on balance I think Ireland have the best claims over the past 6-12 months to dominate this squad and the XV.
English fans may want to hear that, but if these fixtures were structured in a different way and the Italy/Ireland performances were weeks 1 and 2 - I think they get less of a rub going into June.
Scotland over-performed in the 6N, Ireland have the English and ABs scalp, England just equalled a world record streak and Gats has to show some loyalty to "his guys". So an interesting selection upcoming.
Even more interesting the Lions squad is probably coached by the 4th best coach of the lot, although still not a poor one but with a questionable back room. In hindsight perhaps reuiniting a Schmidt/Cotter ticket would have me a bit more worried.
There was a pile of them in the Sunday Times yesterday. The Walrus wouldn't even take Hogg on tour because apparently you don't want an attacking player
Haha. I've gotta read that. I love the Walrus's stuff. Got a link?
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@MN5 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
Has anyone spotted any stabs at the touring party following the last round?
Very, very interesting set up following the Irish victory. Streak aside, on balance I think Ireland have the best claims over the past 6-12 months to dominate this squad and the XV.
English fans may want to hear that, but if these fixtures were structured in a different way and the Italy/Ireland performances were weeks 1 and 2 - I think they get less of a rub going into June.
Scotland over-performed in the 6N, Ireland have the English and ABs scalp, England just equalled a world record streak and Gats has to show some loyalty to "his guys". So an interesting selection upcoming.
Even more interesting the Lions squad is probably coached by the 4th best coach of the lot, although still not a poor one but with a questionable back room. In hindsight perhaps reuiniting a Schmidt/Cotter ticket would have me a bit more worried.
There was a pile of them in the Sunday Times yesterday. The Walrus wouldn't even take Hogg on tour because apparently you don't want an attacking player
Haha. I've gotta read that. I love the Walrus's stuff. Got a link?
ST is paywalled. We need someone with access to C&P it here.
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@Catogrande Gatland has been through that process before in 2013 but back then Wales were the 6 Nations champs. I would assume that the coaches form a selection panel to select the squad so he has an out.
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@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@MN5 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
Has anyone spotted any stabs at the touring party following the last round?
Very, very interesting set up following the Irish victory. Streak aside, on balance I think Ireland have the best claims over the past 6-12 months to dominate this squad and the XV.
English fans may want to hear that, but if these fixtures were structured in a different way and the Italy/Ireland performances were weeks 1 and 2 - I think they get less of a rub going into June.
Scotland over-performed in the 6N, Ireland have the English and ABs scalp, England just equalled a world record streak and Gats has to show some loyalty to "his guys". So an interesting selection upcoming.
Even more interesting the Lions squad is probably coached by the 4th best coach of the lot, although still not a poor one but with a questionable back room. In hindsight perhaps reuiniting a Schmidt/Cotter ticket would have me a bit more worried.
There was a pile of them in the Sunday Times yesterday. The Walrus wouldn't even take Hogg on tour because apparently you don't want an attacking player
Haha. I've gotta read that. I love the Walrus's stuff. Got a link?
ST is paywalled. We need someone with access to C&P it here.
Paying for news on the interweb? What's next.....Paying for porn?
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@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
Captain: Gatland has come out and said that his tour captain is not guaranteed a starting test spot. I can see what he is getting at, not wanting anyone to get a free ride and not wanting one group to instantly feel they don't have a chance at playing. But this is an odd one. For me he needs to pick a leader with a 90%+ chance of starting the tests. Warburton fits the bill.
Both McGeechan and Woodward have come out in favour of Warburton. Best has also been mentioned but is he the top hooker?
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@Bovidae said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
Captain: Gatland has come out and said that his tour captain is not guaranteed a starting test spot. I can see what he is getting at, not wanting anyone to get a free ride and not wanting one group to instantly feel they don't have a chance at playing. But this is an odd one. For me he needs to pick a leader with a 90%+ chance of starting the tests. Warburton fits the bill.
Both McGeechan and Woodward have come out in favour of Warburton. Best has also been mentioned but is he the top hooker?
Yeah. This also brings up the biggest question and that is the style of play that the Lions will go for.
Do they play a defensive game and look to smother the ABs with size and a pressing backline defence while hoping they can stay in the game long enough to get opportunities from forward play or do they try a mixed game that can capitalise on a combination of skillsets even if that is different to the way most of the players normally play and will take time to bed in. -
The Times writers pick their teams
OWEN SLOT
Lions XVS Hogg; G North, J Joseph, O Farrell, L Williams; J Sexton, C Murray; M Vunipola, J George, T Furlong, AW Jones, M Itoje, CJ Stander, S Warburton, B Vunipola
STUART BARNES
Lions XVS Hogg; G North, J Joseph, O Farrell, A Watson; J Sexton, C Murray; M Vunipola, K Owens, T Furlong, AW Jones, M Itoje, S Warburton, S O’Brien, B Vunipola
ALEX LOWE
Lions XVR Kearney; G North, J Joseph, O Farrell, E Daly; J Sexton, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best, T Furlong, AW Jones, J Launchbury, M Itoje, S Warburton, B Vunipola
JOHN WESTERBY
Lions XV S Hogg; A Watson, R Henshaw, O Farrell, G North; J Sexton, C Murray; M Vunipola, J George, T Furlong, I Henderson, AW Jones, M Itoje, S Warburton, B Vunipola
STEVE JAMES
Lions XVS Hogg; G North, B Te’o, O, Farrell, E Daly; J Sexton, C Murray; M Vunipola, K Owens, T Furlong, M Itoje, AW Jones, CJ Stander, S Warburton, B Vunipola
ALASDAIR REID
Lions XVS Hogg; G North, J Joseph, O Farrell, T Seymour; J Sexton, R Webb; M Vunipola, K Owens, T Furlong, M Itoje, AW Jones, CJ Stander, S O’Brien, B VunipolaAnd as a bonus - Stephen Jones
So, what’s on your in-tray, Warren? In-form men give Lions coach Gatland a boost as he finalises his squad
The hustings are almost over; there are just a few more club occasions for candidates to state their case in front of Warren Gatland. The requirements are the same as they were at the start of the process: this is not any tour, it is the tour, to the harshest environment in rugby. Players chosen have to be more than physical, as hard mentally as they are in body. It is no time for a punt, no time to pick poor defenders, or bad apples.
Only the best 36 will do. Players like George Kruis, the England lock, and WP Nel, the Scotland prop, may well have been chosen but for long-term injury. Both appear to have run out of time to impress Warren Gatland before the squad comes out in early April. So too a long shot in Jake Cooper-Woolley, the Wasps prop who had had a long break with concussion. Another sad feature could well be a dramatic dip in the expected Scottish contingent, with a list of contenders suffering badly from the embarrassing eclipse of the team at Twickenham.
Gatland is thought to rate Josh Strauss, the bearded Glasgow flanker, very highly — and my team includes Sean Maitland, the Scotland wing, with Tommy Seymour and Tim Visser edged out on the wing. But players such as Jonny and Richie Gray at lock were outplayed at Twickenham, in a position where the competition is mighty. Fly-half Finn Russell may well have been overtaken by the sheer class available in that position, with Dan Biggar, Johnny Sexton and Owen Farrell in contention.
George Ford does not make my team for the same reason as Stuart Hogg, the full-back — lack of physical stature in what is a very bruising environment. Huw Jones, the Scottish centre, may yet squeeze into midfield but Gatland may well be forced to decide any 50-50 calls in favour of a Scot to make the squad at least nominally representative. My full-back choices get in on their defence as much as offensive capability because New Zealand kick more than any other team. Rob Kearney is a fearless competitor and faultless under the high ball. Leigh Halfpenny’s goal kicking and ability with the ball in the air edges out Stuart Hogg even though Halfpenny is not yet back to his best; Liam Williams can switch from wing.
It must be said that Hogg may be a better attacker than any of my choices bar the talented Williams. Up front, Dylan Hartley’s successful leadership of England and improved form must take him “home” to New Zealand; Fraser Brown is challenging Ken Owens for a hooking place, and Jamie George is a potential bolter. Rory Best’s throws hold him back: the Irish lineout fell apart against Wales.
Richard Hibbard, effectively the incumbent hooker for the Lions Test team and outstanding for Gloucester all season, really should have had a shot but has lost the Gatland wavelength. My team also reflects the current trend to see replacements as finishers, able to make a mighty difference. That is why Gareth Davies is my third-choice scrum-half; why the talented Elliot Daly must surely tour; why up front, Kyle Sinckler, the explosive Harlequin, is worth a shot.
He can make a huge late impact with ball in hand. Ben Youngs, the England scrum-half, would be very unlucky if he loses out, but Davies has the very rare ability to influence games late on when arriving as replacement. Youngs is more of a starter The crowded lock contenders boil down in my team to two Welshmen (Alun Wyn Jones and Luke Charteris, at his best, the best available) and two in-form Englishmen, Courtney Lawes and Joe Launchbury.
The closest Scottish lock to selection here is Jim Hamilton, long forgotten by his national side. Toby Faletau must tour at No 8 because of his prodigious ability, and the list of those I have left out in the back row is frightening — Sean O’Brien, Jamie Heaslip, Ross Moriarty, Justin Tipuric, John Hardie, Ryan Wilson, Nathan Hughes and Chris Robshaw Gatland has all the evidence.
Privately, he would probably love some late shocks in the knockout stages of the main club competitions and the ejection of some top teams to give his front-line men some rest — although it is true that many of the players now fit have indeed had a decent break during the season England (15) have the most players in my squad, and had other close contenders. Scotland have only two. Ireland have seven — Devin Toner, Garry Ringrose, Best and O’Brien have been subdued of late — and Wales 12.
Over to Gatland, for the final, frantic head-scratching. But he also has strength — the recent form of Conor Murray, Jack McGrath, George North, Maro Itoje, Owen Farrell and Jonathan Joseph raises the pleasing prospect of a hardcore of what Sir Ian McGeechan calls Test match animals. Good news. After all, New Zealand’s challenge is a call of the wild.
STEPHEN JONES’ SQUAD
Full-backs R Kearney (Ireland), L Halfpenny (Wales)
Wings A Watson (England), G North (Wales), S Maitland (Scotland), L Williams (Wales)
Centres J Joseph (England), R Henshaw (Ireland), E Daly (England), O Farrell (England), S Williams (Wales)
Fly-halves J Sexton (Ireland), D Biggar (Wales)
Scrum-halves C Murray (Ireland), R Webb (Wales), G Davies (Wales)
No 8 B Vunipola (England), T Faletau (Wales)
Flankers M Itoje (England), J Haskell (England), CJ Stander (Ireland), S Warburton (Wales), J Strauss (Scotland)
Locks AW Jones (Wales), L Charteris (Wales), C Lawes (England), J Launchbury (England)
Hookers D Hartley (England), J George (England), K Owens (Wales)
Props J Marler (England), M Vunipola (England), J McGrath (Ireland), T Furlong (Ireland), D Cole (England), K Sinckler (England )
