Bledisloe I (All Blacks team room bugged)

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="pakman" data-cid="608081" data-time="1471853078">
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<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.theroar.com.au/2016/08/22/giteaus-law-must-go-destroys-wallabies-culture/'>http://www.theroar.com.au/2016/08/22/giteaus-law-must-go-destroys-wallabies-culture/</a>
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None of the Giteau rule players stood up. It sends a bad message to the boys coming through, it doesn't work for the Saffas and it isn't working for the Wobs

ACT Crusader

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="608144" data-time="1471865203">None of the Giteau rule players stood up. It sends a bad message to the boys coming through, it doesn't work for the Saffas and it isn't working for the Wobs</blockquote>
 
Although the OZ one is fairly limited with the minimum tests played being so high, so it's not like the floodgates are opened up. 
I guess one way of looking at it is that those younger players need to work harder.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mick Gold Coast QLD" data-cid="608125" data-time="1471861428">
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I cannot see improvement sufficient to repel an All Blacks team which is just as likely to come out of the blocks just as quickly as they did last Saturday, or even 20% less quickly; which has developed handling skills and a determination to back up continuously to a level where it is now instinctive; with a mindset of "we are very good at what we do" and with a composure in the run on 15 which facilitates that. They too have something important to achieve, an improvement on the small errors they will have identified by now; and a bonus point and no bonus point to the other mob.
 
We do not have "a proper 8". We have a handful of mediocre performers who shuffle from 4 to 5 to 6 to 7 to 8 to 20 from week to week, from season to season, all of them under-sized, limited in their range of abilities; used and discarded many times then brought back in.
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I still say at some point (likely very soon) this kind of is Cheika's fault though. You can bemoan the lack of ready made players in certain positions when you first take over, but when the cupboard is empty you need to have a clear idea what skills you are demanding and then start building players towards that and start setting the expectations.
 
For the current game you need your loosie trio to be physical in both attack and defense, high technical skills at the breakdown, contributors at the line out and with very strong ball playing skills. You need all of those ideally, perhaps average in one, but aspiring to all. Legitimately Pocock has the breakdown skills - but little else as a trump suit as his speed declined his breakdown prowess is in question too. Is there an All Black starting forward with worse ball playing skills than him, perhaps Franks?
 
Cheika was gushing with praise for Pocock and Genia after the game. If you are going to praise Pocock after that game you are beyond help and your philosophy when it comes to the loose trio isn't in keeping with the modern game. More than likely Cheika doesn't have a strong conviction when it comes to what a loose trio should be - which is why he is happy running with a gimmick that was old hat a year ago. Deans was similar when he allowed himself to get roped into Radieke Samo as a genuine option at this level.
 
Someone mentioned Adam Thomson earlier and that is spot on for Pocock and Hoopah. Really unique skill set, as an all round player nowhere near dominant at test level.

Frye

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="ACT Crusader" data-cid="608151" data-time="1471869290">
Although the OZ one is fairly limited with the minimum tests played being so high, so it's not like the floodgates are opened up. 
I guess one way of looking at it is that those younger players need to work harder.</blockquote>
 
Giteau rule is fine for a World Cup, but is simply a horrible decision at this part of the cycle. How shortsighted can you be?

akan004

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="608165" data-time="1471878531">
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 Legitimately Pocock has the breakdown skills - but little else as a trump suit as his speed declined his breakdown prowess is in question too.
 
Cheika was gushing with praise for Pocock and Genia after the game. If you are going to praise Pocock after that game you are beyond help and your philosophy when it comes to the loose trio isn't in keeping with the modern game. More than likely Cheika doesn't have a strong conviction when it comes to what a loose trio should be - which is why he is happy running with a gimmick that was old hat a year ago.
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To be fair, Pocock made four breakdown turnovers and was instrumental is slowing down the AB ball to a degree. I don't know what more you can expect from a number seven in a beaten pack than what Pocock offered on Saturday night. He was the only Wallaby player to outplay his opposition counterpart.

Bones

Ummm nope, Pocock didn't outplay Read.

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="akan004" data-cid="608167" data-time="1471883235">
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To be fair, Pocock made four breakdown turnovers and was instrumental is slowing down the AB ball to a degree. I don't know what more you can expect from a number seven in a beaten pack than what Pocock offered on Saturday night. He was the only Wallaby player to outplay his opposition counterpart.
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Problem is he was playing 8, as Bones notes. And Read showcased the skills most international 8's have, which Pocock doesn't.
 
Its no different to when the AB's tried to shoehorn Marty Holah & McCaw in & quickly decided that was dumb

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="akan004" data-cid="608167" data-time="1471883235">
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To be fair, Pocock made four breakdown turnovers and was instrumental is slowing down the AB ball to a degree. I don't know what more you can expect from a number seven in a beaten pack than what Pocock offered on Saturday night. He was the only Wallaby player to outplay his opposition counterpart.
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I think that kind of proves my point. Pocock played 8, not 7. That is what this whole thing is about the loose trio needs a specific balance that those two cannot provide. Read monstered him and currently leads forwards in MoTM voting.
 
Let's wait and see the haka.co.nz tackle stats before we say Pocock outplayed Cane too.

DMX

I think Pooper has been pretty effective against non-NZ teams but bar one game against ABs I think they lose in far more areas than they gain. Even if Pocock and Hooper get turnovers there are many occasions when they miss the turnovers and are left vulnerable outside. Add to this NZ Backrow are better lineout forwards, better in the collision and better over the gainline.

pakman

Just goes to show what no one has pointed out so far (as far as I can see), which is that Read is worth his weight in Gold to the ABs.

Crucial

I know I'm a broken record on this but Pocock is primarily a one-trick pony that is extremely good at his one trick to the detriment (at times) of his other duties. He is so busy hunting for those stat building turnovers that his positioning on defence is neglected.
As an example watch the BB try again. Watch Pocock's running line. He is sucked toward the Reado ruck set up leaving a hole the size of a Hamilton whore during Feildays week for BB to step through. He changes his mind way too late and looks like a poor club player trying to get to the tackle.
 
Turnovers from a long armed, short legged Popeye ain't everything.

nzzp

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="DMX" data-cid="608172" data-time="1471889532">
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Even if Pocock and Hoopah get turnovers there are many occasions when they miss the turnovers and are left vulnerable outside. Add to this NZ Backrow are better lineout forwards, better in the collision and better over the gainline.
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This!
 
the obsession with turnovers hurts the rest of the game. It's like arguing with some people about wingers (not Winger, but wingers)...
 
- Look at the great tries he scores
- yep, but how about his high ball work, defensive alignment and tackling
- none of that matters! He's really fast!
 
To be fair, you can carry one bloke who's brilliant in one area but weaker in others, but when you start combining, you give a lot away. I don't think it is any surprise that the ABs made metres wide - the focus of the Wobbles to pile bodies into the breakdown means there is stretched defense everywhere elsewhere.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Gary" data-cid="608139" data-time="1471864246">
Don't know where all this feel sorry for the Aussie rugby comes from you guys obviously can't remember the 1998 to 2003 and John O'Neil's ARU.</blockquote>
 
Agree 100% karma is a cruel bitch

taniwharugby

Dunno about feeling sorry, more that it isn't good for rugby.

jegga

Things can change pretty quickly , 2009 wasn't that long ago and we sucked.

reprobate

lotsa pocock at 8 isn't great for balance, and the aussies need a traditional 8 - so which of the aussie 8s in super rugby wouldn't have been completely outplayed by read? they all would have, they all would have lost at the colllision, none of them would have got around the field like read does, and they wouldn't have got those turnovers.
 
this international quality traditional 8 is just in your heads, he doesn't actually exist in australia.

Frye

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="608205" data-time="1471906239">
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lotsa pocock at 8 isn't great for balance, and the aussies need a traditional 8 - so which of the aussie 8s in super rugby wouldn't have been completely outplayed by read? they all would have, they all would have lost at the colllision, none of them would have got around the field like read does, and they wouldn't have got those turnovers.
 
this international quality traditional 8 is just in your heads, he doesn't actually exist in australia.
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Pocock would have played 7. And still got the turnovers.
 
Meanwhile Hoopah could have sat on the bench and a bigger, taller body could have added starch to the pack and height to the lineout.
 
Not a difficult concept.

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Don Frye" data-cid="608220" data-time="1471907445">
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Pocock would have played 7. And still got the turnovers.
 
Meanwhile Hoopah could have sat on the bench and a bigger, taller body could have added starch to the pack and height to the lineout.
 
Not a difficult concept.
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People must be missing a bunch of posts to not get it by this stage.
 
If Chieka doesn't want to start Palu, then he should look for his most mobile lock/ blindside options. Currently that would be Mumm if they're not going to look at people like Lopeti Timani. He can push in the scrum, run with the ball and jump in the lineout. Fardy can hit rucks and jump in the lineout. Pocock can get turnovers.
 
I'd also swap Simmons for Will Skelton for the first half - he at least bends the line and shifts bodies.

RoninWC

Having watched a replay, recorded live on the IQ2, (after watching the game live on TV with a few too many beverages under the belt - I'd actually fallen/passed out on the couch for the hour before the game and only managed to watch because the wife checked in on me and woke me up) the second viewing really highlighted some amazing work from JK.
 
Kaino had an absolutely fabulous match. His tight work, big driving hits on D and making yards with every carry in tight gave Reid the space to work out wide which he did so well. He was everywhere and absolutely dominated the collinsions getting the better of his opponents.
 
Kaino carried the Blues in the early part of the SR season and then got injured and clearly the rest did him some good because his form in that game was as good as it's ever been.
 
And this is why we have such a well balanced back row, Kaino and Cane doing a lot of tight work, Reid (and our 4th loosie Coles) causing havoc out wide and a tight 5 that just kept hitting rucks but not over committing numbers at rucks.
 
I also think our decision making at the ruck is a hell of a lot better than the Aussies, we barely got any turnovers but our offensive defence caused a lot of dropped ball by the Aussies. Where as the Aussies seem to just pile in an look for the turnover at almost every ruck committing numbers which then creates space outwide. Sure Pocock get's turnovers but in the end, I'm very happy with our smarter and more effective defense based on not committing numbers, fast line speed and offensive defense.
 
One other thing that stood out to me in this game was the AB's linespeed in D. I think that was one of the tweaks that the brains trust would have made after watching how successfuly this was employed by the 'Canes during the SR finals. The Aussies seem to rarely make it over the gainline due to the AB's linespeed in D.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nzzp" data-cid="608176" data-time="1471894218">
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This!
 
the obsession with turnovers hurts the rest of the game. It's like arguing with some people about wingers (not Winger, but wingers)...
 
- Look at the great tries he scores
- yep, but how about his high ball work, defensive alignment and tackling
- none of that matters! He's really fast!
 
To be fair, you can carry one bloke who's brilliant in one area but weaker in others, but when you start combining, you give a lot away. I don't think it is any surprise that the ABs made metres wide - the focus of the Wobbles to pile bodies into the breakdown means there is stretched defense everywhere elsewhere.
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Always baffles me that Pocock is so poor with ball in hand as it did with Ruben Thorne all those years ago. With that low centre of gravity he looks like the kind of guy they'd pass to five metres out from the line and he'd go over every single time no matter who was in front of him. McCaw got better and better at this facet of the game as he got older but Pocock doesn't look a hope of emulating that.

The Silver Fern

Bledisloe I (All Blacks team room bugged)