Scott Kuggeleijn sex trial
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<p>Absolutely agree in all claims being taken seriously, AND in innocent until proven guilty.</p>
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<p>One thing that makes my blood boil though, is the line of thinking 'if x truly happened why didn't he/she do or say y'.</p>
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<p>Everyone reacts differently to trauma of any kind, and this is taking a whole lot of factors into account.</p>
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<p>If the brain can process the event. How fast (if at all) it can get past the what the hell is going on/I can't believe this/why me bit.</p>
<p>If their life or wellbeing is at serious risk.</p>
<p>If there is a method of escape or not, or if all that can be done is mitigation.</p>
<p>If it is something that has happened before, how they coped, and what the outcome was (PTSD)</p>
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<p>A massive surge of adrenaline doesn't mean shit when the brain is scrambled to the point of paralysis.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="aucklandwarlord" data-cid="601190" data-time="1469759969">
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<p>Sorry, I wrote that post at about 2am, after a few beers, so I couldn't really be arsed scouring the internet for links. Those statistics were from memory, based on research online that I had done of other studies for a uni paper I wrote a few years back. They are probably 'give or take' a little bit, but my general gist was that in regards to sexual assault complaints, only a very minor percentage of them result in the conviction of the offender. There are a heap of reasons for that, but most commonly:</p>
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<ul><li>Except for stranger rape cases (masked intruder, dragged into bushes in public place etc) they often involve the alleged victim and offender knowing one another, which makes things murky and puts strong social dynamics into play, particularly when it happens within groups of friends, so victims either don't want to go ahead with complaints, or else you get differing accounts, depending on which side of the net a witness is sitting on</li>
<li>Alcohol is more often than not involved, which makes memories hazy and opens up a complainant to being slaughtered on the stand for being too drunk</li>
<li>They may be historic, therefore evidence has been lost or the complainant just wants to have their complaint noted and then get some appropriate help (counselling etc)</li>
<li>A victim often just wants to hear her story heard and have a medical check up to make sure she will have no ongoing problems (this is often the case in cases like the one before the court at the moment where it involves alcohol and he said/she said circumstances)</li>
<li>They may involve a family member and the victim doesn't want to tear the family apart, or is getting a lot of pressure on them from the extended family to withdraw the complaint.</li>
<li>Often they just don't want the trauma of having to relive everything 2 years down the track. We had some really cut and dry cases with great evidence, even to the point of confessions or admissions made by offenders that never made it to court, for that very reason. I could name at least 10 offenders that I know of from my time in the job, who would have received lengthy sentences had it gone to court, but the victim refused to go ahead with the case. So you multiply that out across all of NZ and it's a bit scary to think who is out there.</li>
</ul><p>As Crazy Horse said, and Mrs AWL is a cop as well so I speak from her experience too, that very few do make it to court for those reasons, so it's not like the Police are wandering around blindly believing victims at the expense of dragging a clearly innocent man through the mud just to make the victim feel better. Everything is subject to the Solicitor General's prosecution guidelines, where something shouldn't be taken to court if there isn't a reasonable prospect of securing a conviction. If cases are taken to court that clearly have no merit and everything goes pear-shaped, the offender is legally able to seek costs against the Crown, for expenses and damages which can get pretty expensive. Therefore, there is a robust process in place to ensure that only evidentially sufficient cases get before a jury. </p>
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<p>To clarify, when I say all cases should be treated as genuine, I mean that in the past (80's, 90's), females would come in an make a complaint of rape and the salty old Detectives would take one look at it, or listen to the story and decide that the complainant was full of shit, or was drunk, scantily dressed and asking for it and that was that. So now, if a person comes in and makes a complaint, a full statement will still be taken, scene examinations will still take place, medical examinations of the complainant will still take place, even if the complainants story doesn't seem to stack up. Sexual assault files don't get closed down early just based on a hunch or an opinion. With the right investigation (phone records, talking to witnesses, looking at CCTV) a proper false complaint can be disproved really easily. I never went out of my way to take shit or cases with insufficient evidence to court, nor did any other cop I knew. There was very little point in doing that when there was a huge backlog of cases with evidential sufficiency sitting on my desk waiting to be investigated. </p>
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<p>Only once these things have been investigated will the decision be made on whether it is likely a false complaint. That doesn't mean that the alleged offender will be blindly hauled over the coals, in fact, often we never even interviewed to the alleged offender if we could disprove the allegation by other means, because there was no point in upsetting someone unnecessarily if something clearly didn't happen. It might have been as simple as just going to see the guy, letting them know the gist of the complaint, but that we had disproved it, and asking them what their thoughts were on further action against the complainant in regards to false complaints. Absolutely the offenders were presumed innocent until guilty.</p>
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<p>Cops aren't man-hating feminists who want to string all men up by the balls, and me particularly so (as any of the BOP Mafia ferners who I met a few years back might be able to attest to), but treating a rape complainant genuinely and decently until there is proof that he/she is lying is just common sense I would have thought. That is quite different to presuming an offender is guilty, it's more that the complainant has genuine intentions for sitting in front of me and telling a complete stranger about her last sexual event . When I worked crime squad, in any given weekend shifts, we'd get up to half a dozen sexual assault complaints come across our desk. This got even worse with the advent of apps like Tinder, where we got quite a few "she flirted with me online so I assumed she was well up for it" type explanations. We had plenty of jobs where the boyfriend or significant other would drag the "victim" in to the station saying she had been raped by a guy she met in town, but when the door closed, she had just cheated on him, she didn't want to make a complaint and had never wanted to come into the station in the first place. More often than not, people who made the clearly false complaints of rape (and other crimes) were suffering a tonne of other problems as well, so prosecution wasn't ever taken up until they became repeat offenders. </p>
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<p>So in short, sexual assault cases are a minefield, hence why I specialised in drugs and organised crime...</p>
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<p>Good post, agree with it all.</p>
<p>But I am still very dubious about the stats about how many are reported. I have actually done a bit of searching on it and nothing has come back.</p>
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<p>What is a fact though is that stats on these things have been misrepresented numerous times, even here on the fern previously with one stupid claim about the prevalence of women being sexually assaulted. Therefore I treat all 'stats' on this with utmost skepticism.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mokey" data-cid="601201" data-time="1469761933">
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<p>Absolutely agree in all claims being taken seriously, AND in innocent until proven guilty.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>One thing that makes my blood boil though, is the line of thinking 'if x truly happened why didn't he/she do or say y'.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Everyone reacts differently to trauma of any kind, and this is taking a whole lot of factors into account.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If the brain can process the event. How fast (if at all) it can get past the what the hell is going on/I can't believe this/why me bit.</p>
<p>If their life or wellbeing is at serious risk.</p>
<p>If there is a method of escape or not, or if all that can be done is mitigation.</p>
<p>If it is something that has happened before, how they coped, and what the outcome was (PTSD)</p>
<p> </p>
<p>A massive surge of adrenaline doesn't mean shit when the brain is scrambled to the point of paralysis.</p>
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<p>A lawyer in Wellington a few years back asked why a rape victim didn't just close her legs when she was being raped by a bouncer in town (he was later convicted).</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9397528/Rape-victim-could-have-closed-legs-says-lawyer'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9397528/Rape-victim-could-have-closed-legs-says-lawyer</a></p> -
<p>As a side note.. this case shows why you should never ever talk to cops until you absolutely have to. </p>
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<p>When my kids are old enough they will watch this video. Highly recommend everyone spend the time watching it.</p>
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<p>Think this was posted on TSF previously?</p> -
<p>It was but well worth another share. Excellent vid.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="601205" data-time="1469762541">
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<p>As a side note.. this case shows why you should never ever talk to cops until you absolutely have to. </p>
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<p>Are you talking about in a capacity as a suspect/offender, or in general, i.e if you were a witness to something? I have every intention of watching the video, but don't have 48 minutes at the moment. I watched the first 5 minutes and it looked interesting.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="aucklandwarlord" data-cid="601209" data-time="1469762904">
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<p>Are you talking about in a capacity as a suspect/offender, or in general, i.e if you were a witness to something? I have every intention of watching the video, but don't have 48 minutes at the moment. I watched the first 5 minutes and it looked interestin</p>
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<p>The genral gist is never unless you are reporting a crime or are uvery obviously just a witness.</p>
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<p>It appears in the Kuggeleijn case what he said to police is ... not helping him</p> -
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<p>I feel very sorry for both parties in this case from what I have read. It looks like she may have felt she had no choice then felt violated while he felt that he did the right thing and when his morning advances weren't met with a 'no', then that was a 'yes'.</p>
<p>I can see how easy the situation could have developed.</p>
<p>Hard part will be how to deal with it. It seems cruel to dismiss her accusation and cruel to place a sex crime on him.</p>
<p>Poor communication can lead to some very messy situations.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="602198" data-time="1470058255">
'> </a></p>
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<p>I feel very sorry for both parties in this case from what I have read. It looks like she may have felt she had no choice then felt violated while he felt that he did the right thing and when his morning advances weren't met with a 'no', then that was a 'yes'.</p>
<p>I can see how easy the situation could have developed.</p>
<p>Hard part will be how to deal with it. It seems cruel to dismiss her accusation and cruel to place a sex crime on him.</p>
<p>Poor communication can lead to some very messy situations.</p>
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<p>Yeah I think when we think about sex offences, we tend to imagine the girl snatched off the street by a masked stranger but the reality is far more murky</p>
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<p>In the same vein, it seems crazy that we teach our kids so much about stranger danger or safety in public places when, statistically speaking, a person is far more likely to be sexually assaulted by someone known to them (relative, neighbour, intimate partner, friend), yet that is almost never spoken about. </p>
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<p>The extent of my sexual abuse awareness learning when I was a kid was this video, starring Rolf Harris. I sure hope it's moved on from there...</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href=' -
<p>He has...</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="602198" data-time="1470058255">
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<p>I feel very sorry for both parties in this case from what I have read. It looks like she may have felt she had no choice then felt violated while he felt that he did the right thing and when his morning advances weren't met with a 'no', then that was a 'yes'.</p>
<p>I can see how easy the situation could have developed.</p>
<p>Hard part will be how to deal with it. It seems cruel to dismiss her accusation and cruel to place a sex crime on him.</p>
<p>Poor communication can lead to some very messy situations.</p>
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<p>if the facts are that she was awake, sober and he believed he had consent then there is no rape. you simply can't destroy someone's life with that sort of massive stigma because you didn't say no and then regretted it afterwards, not matter how much you regret it, or how much you felt 'pressured'. </p>
<p>if she had previously said no and he had accepted that - then she was both capable of saying no, and it suggests he would have listened.</p>
<p>if anyone voluntarily goes to bed undressed with someone else, it is reasonable to expect someone may try it on - especially given previous advances.</p>
<p>if he tried again and wasn't told no. life is full of relationships that have started with one party saying no a few times at first, and then it changing to a yes. it's not like one 'no' covers future events.</p>
<p>etc.</p>
<p>far too many 'if's, and who knows what the truth is really. an awful situation.</p> -
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<p>Good to see an article explaining exactly what instructions were given to the jury</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/392336/jury-deliberating-kuggeleijn-rape-case'>http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/392336/jury-deliberating-kuggeleijn-rape-case</a></p>
<p></p><p></p><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">The judge gave the jury four questions to consider. The first revolved around whether sex actually took place, followed by whether the complainant consented to it.
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<div>If they believed she wasn't consenting, the jury had to consider whether the Crown has proven that Kuggeleijn didn't believe she was consenting.</div>
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<div>If they agreed with that, they had to decide if Kuggeleijn had reasonable grounds to believe that she was consenting.</div>
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<p>Connell suggested the jury considered Kuggeleijn's evidence first. If they accept what he says, they should find him not guilty. Or, if they were unsure, then they must also find him not guilty. But even if they disbelieved Kuggeleijn's evidence they would then need to assess the Crown's submissions in regards to the complainant saying "no".</p></blockquote> -
<p>Does anyone remember exactly what happened when Roger Randle got in trouble overseas ? from memory it all got thrown out but the mud still stuck and may have contributed to him having a much briefer AB career than I personally think he deserved.</p>
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<p>I remember hearing he may have been the fall guy for more famous teammates ? Obviously if this thread is naming names and potentially a bit of a prickly subject mods can feel free to delete it but if not I'd love to know more about what happened.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="602269" data-time="1470097659">
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<p>Does anyone remember exactly what happened when Roger Randle got in trouble overseas ? from memory it all got thrown out but the mud still stuck and may have contributed to him having a much briefer AB career than I personally think he deserved.</p>
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<p>I remember hearing he may have been the fall guy for more famous teammates ? Obviously if this thread is naming names and potentially a bit of a prickly subject mods can feel free to delete it but if not I'd love to know more about what happened.</p>
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<p>IIRC there were several players in the room, there may have been some sharing going on but Randle took the fall (and probably wasn't actually involved in the acts)</p> -
<p>I'd not be willing to take the fall for something like that if it wasn't me, even if it were to jeopardise my career in NZ.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="602277" data-time="1470099964"><p>
I'd not be willing to take the fall for something like that if it wasn't me, even if it were to jeopardise my career in NZ.</p></blockquote>Absolutely. I don't remember him being quite as good again but my memory might be wrong