Current depth at 10
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we don't really have a depth problem, it's just that nobody likes the players that are selected. We have two vastly experienced options at 10, which is a luxury. The problem is that half the country hates one of them, and the other half hates the other guy.
Then throw in the fact that they are always available, meaning very few opportunities for anyone else.
Then throw in the fact that, especially in DMacs case, they are far and away the standouts at the 2nd tier level. It's not like there is a guy absolutely beating the door down behind them.
Then throw in the fact that the NZ public is absolutely not going to stand for picking some scrub at 10 to "build depth" if it results in a loss. NZ coaches have got far more conservative in this area.There is sort of the same issue in other spots. Take #8. We have no depth there because the guy who owns the shirt is always available and plays 80 minutes every week.
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@reprobate said in Current depth at 10:
@gt12 said in Current depth at 10:
@reprobate said in Current depth at 10:
@handa457 Anything that has as a benefit extending Beauden's playing career sounds a bit dubious to me, I'd knock 30 odd caps (at 10) off it if I could.
When has Perofeta ever locked down a starting spot at 10, at any level? He can't even demand that jersey for the 'naki and you think he should have more opportunities at AB level?Building depth is great, but spreading talent across the Super teams (which makes a lot of sense) needs to come first. Quality players on the bench or in the stands is just stupid, but you can't pick guys for the ABs who don't start in that position at the level below.
Whilst I might agree with this, historically, multiple AB coaching teams (and the current ones seem to be even worse with their Crusader bias) have been happy to select reserves (even beyond the 23 at times).
So, there is no reason for player migration to other teams unless the player is likely to see very very little time (e.g., outside backs).
If you are likely to see minutes off the bench, why move?
I don't feel like this thread is about AB 1st fives at all, it seems to be a moan about player distribution.
At 10 though? It's one thing to pick a prop who can scrum well and lift in a lineout off the bench, or a hooker who can throw accurately - but the core role at 10 is game management. How can you possibly judge that in a bench player: you never actually get to see them manage a game?
I’m not defending it, I’m pointing out that the AB coaches haven't cared if they judge the players to be a class above.
We had DC, Slade, and Taylor all make the ABs as 10s while at the Saders.
More recently, Barrett, Perofeta, Plummer at the Blues.
It’s not new.
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Does our school rugby system promote the ongoing development of strong 10s?
The really strong rugby schools tend to have absolute units in the midfield, or the slightly bigger creative kids who get a bit more space to operate.
All the young 10s need to do in the good teams is kick ok and set up the attacking weapons they have in their backlines. Sure we develop a handful of decent ones every few years. It just seems like talent in the midfield and on the wings lessens the need for a quality 10 through the development years.
Some of the quicker kids end up at fullback as well. As they are more likely to be the guys who can run into space and exploit defences.
Then we they get to club or provincial level, everyone is the same size and they then have to properly run a backline more than just throw the ball to 105 kg 12s or wingers that can go expectionally quick over 40m.
A lot of the guys we have around at the moment are probably better 15s than they are 10sz it is just they are our best 10s. Barrett, McKenzie, Perofeta, Love, Godfrey...
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Super rugby success requires a run and gun 10 as well. Open fast footy played for the most part on hard tracks. If the comp dragged in to winter it might be different, but really you play on top of the ground with a heap of space. An adequate kicking game is required, but you win the comp with your legs and your passing game.
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@MacDazzler said in Current depth at 10:
@canefan None of them have kicked on recently or are too young. Josh McKay ended up as a fullback/wing. Neither the 2018 and 2019 10s Cullen Moody or Ollie Lewis played NPC.
Alex Harford and James White both played NPC but that's it. Presume White will end up in the full Crusaders squad next year perhaps if JOC doesn't play on.
White played well for Canterbury in the games I saw last year. Found it very odd he wasn't one of the three first fives in the main squad.
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@mariner4life we seem to play like we are on hard and fast tracks regardless of the conditions or game situation.
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@taniwharugby said in Current depth at 10:
@mariner4life we seem to play like we are on hard and fast tracks regardless of the conditions or game situation.
when you are under pressure you revert to what you know
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@HugeCarrot2 said in Current depth at 10:
@MacDazzler said in Current depth at 10:
@canefan None of them have kicked on recently or are too young. Josh McKay ended up as a fullback/wing. Neither the 2018 and 2019 10s Cullen Moody or Ollie Lewis played NPC.
Alex Harford and James White both played NPC but that's it. Presume White will end up in the full Crusaders squad next year perhaps if JOC doesn't play on.
White played well for Canterbury in the games I saw last year. Found it very odd he wasn't one of the three first fives in the main squad.
He is in the WTG.
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@mariner4life and often create that pressure on ourselves by playing that way....
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@mariner4life said in Current depth at 10:
Super rugby success requires a run and gun 10 as well. Open fast footy played for the most part on hard tracks. If the comp dragged in to winter it might be different, but really you play on top of the ground with a heap of space. An adequate kicking game is required, but you win the comp with your legs and your passing game.
I disagree. Since DC that's what coaches think we need. The Blues won it all last season with Plummer, who played a more balanced pivot game. We need game managers, good decision makers who can allow their outsides time and space to work, with solid kicking games that can also run. Players like Plummer don't seem to be valued like I believe they should. DC has screwed up our thinking ever since
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the Blues of 2024 (and to a lessor extent the Bulls) are the anomaly i think. RMo. DMac. BB have been the standard for so long now.
The Reds won when they had Quaide
The Highlanders won with SopoagaThink back to Carlos, Mehrts, Larkham. Running and passing first 5s.
DC was the closest to a "game manager" but that's only because he was an absolute freak.
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@mariner4life said in Current depth at 10:
the Blues of 2024 (and to a lessor extent the Bulls) are the anomaly i think. RMo. DMac. BB have been the standard for so long now.
The Reds won when they had Quaide
The Highlanders won with SopoagaThink back to Carlos, Mehrts, Larkham. Running and passing first 5s.
DC was the closest to a "game manager" but that's only because he was an absolute freak.
Funny, I think of Merhts more as a passer kicker who could run.. He was picked over Carlos who was a run and gun first, game manager second.
I think DMac showed with the Chiefs that he could do both, but the ABs seem intent on making him create all of the play when he is at 10
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@canefan said in Current depth at 10:
@mariner4life said in Current depth at 10:
Super rugby success requires a run and gun 10 as well. Open fast footy played for the most part on hard tracks. If the comp dragged in to winter it might be different, but really you play on top of the ground with a heap of space. An adequate kicking game is required, but you win the comp with your legs and your passing game.
I disagree. Since DC that's what coaches think we need. The Blues won it all last season with Plummer, who played a more balanced pivot game. We need game managers, good decision makers who can allow their outsides time and space to work, with solid kicking games that can also run. Players like Plummer don't seem to be valued like I believe they should. DC has screwed up our thinking ever since
I don't see us beating South Africa, France, England and Ireland consistently if we try to play like the Blues with Plummer at 10. Their win was based on forwards dominating collisions in close, and I don't see us achieving that consistently against the top sides - certainly not without major personnel changes, and probably not at all.
McKenzie is the standout 10 in Super rugby. He's the guy we have who creates space for others, and he has a good boot, and his decision-making has come a long long way since his early days where he was just running in circles looking for a gap to use his freakish acceleration. He's by far our best - we just need to stick with him, and give him a bit of support - not overload him with 40,000 touches every week and then blame him when things go south in the last 10 minutes when he's knackered and no other fluffybunny has created anything all day. The management of him last year was fucking abysmal. He did so much good stuff early on and was growing into the role despite a fair bit of mediocrity around him, then he somehow got blamed for our poor finishes and put on the bench - which quelle surprise didn't fix our game but largely fixed our poor finishes because he's a better fucking player. Then he gets a shot to start against Ireland due to injury and is our best in our best game of the year, then he gets rewarded for that by being put back to the bench, and we lose again.
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Arguably Dan Carter was initially picked as a "run and gun" 10 who turned out to be a brilliant game manager and director too.
The expectation from Hansen and Foster was that Mo'unga's game would evolve in a similar manner, but it never happened.
We haven't had a First-Five who was primarily picked for game-management skills since Grant Fox. It's all been Run and Guns.
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The next two Rugby World Cups are going to be played probably on fast tracks: Australia in October/November 2027 and the USA (mostly sunshine states) in September/October 2031.
So developing run and gun 10s makes a lot of sense.
Hopefully, the refs will let things flow a bit more than the "stop-start-check the replay 50 times" nonsense we saw in France in 2023.
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@sparky said in Current depth at 10:
The next two Rugby World Cups are going to be played probably on fast tracks: Australia in October/November 2027 and the USA (mostly sunshine states) in September/October 2031.
So developing run and gun 10s makes a lot of sense.
Hopefully, the refs will let things flow a bit more than the "stop-start-check the replay 50 times" nonsense we saw in France in 2023.
I don't advocate returning to the days of Grant Fox. We tried running at all costs last year and watched the ABs run out of steam in the second half of several games. Having a strong tactical kicking game to go with a running attack will always be of benefit regardless of the conditions.
