Current depth at 10
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@antipodean we've spent a long time wasting and poorly developing depth.
Harry Plummer, Otere Black and Fergus Burke all went overseas right on the cusp of National Selection. Probably in part because they didn't see a realistic pathway to game time.
Brett Cameron and Stephen Perfoeta should absolutely both have more caps than they do - if nothing else just to build depth. Josh Ioane if wasn't....well Josh Ioane should have too. Zarn Sullivan is intently talented and should be being developed into a long term 10/15 and yet can't even get game time at the Blues.
Bryn Gatland Mitch Hunt. Kaleb Trask. Rivez Reihana are/ were all solid Super rugby squad members. Maybe not starting first fives but not the sort of players we want to be losing. Hunt and Gatland are already gone, and I can't see a scenario where Trak and Reihana stay long term.
Highlanders invested in Freddie Burns and Rhys Patchell. While both were solid players (more so Patchell than Burns) I strongly feel any one of the above first fives would have been a better fit for the team than looking overseas.
Then the young generation - Aidan Morgan, AJ Falefaga, Cam Millar and Taine Robinson all seem to be young players thrown to the wolves too early for one reason or another.
In fact of Harry Godfry Lucas Cashmore, Taha Kemara and Josh Jacomb only two of the four have looked consistently comfortable at super rugby level and all needed to be developed more than they were before shoved into starting roles. (Cashmore probably an outlier here as he hasn't seen that much gametime).
Looking past 2027 I fear for our future. I can' see Perofeta sticking around if he gets limited game time which seems likely. I like the look of Jacomb but feel he might need another season. I fear they'll rush him into the team at the expense of Perofeta.
So come 2028 who do we have? Damian Mckenzie and possibly Josh Jacomb. Maybe Ruben love if he get's developed as a 10. An injury to Damian Mckeznie and we have a serious problem.
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@handa457 said in Highlanders 2025:
Zarn Sullivan is intently talented and should be being developed into a long term 10/15 and yet can't even get game time at the Blues.
He's been injured all year. He came back into the starting side as soon as he was fit
Also he has been tried at 10 during the NPC and it was not a success. His kicking action is quite slow so was always under pressure at 10. He's a traditional 15 who might be able to shift 12
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There is nothing unusual about a lack of depth at first five.
Going back to 1995 we have had
Andrew Mehrtens who played 70 tests. 95 to 04.
Dan Carter who played 112 between 03 and 15.
Bequden barrett who played 134 tests between 12 and now.
That is effectively 30 years of test rugby with three players owning one position. With a two to three year cross over for each.
Yeah we have had the likes of Brown, Evans, Spenver, Cruden and Donald who played between between 15 and 50 tests. It is just the three main guys have played 350 tests between them.
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Mo'unga, McKenzie, then who? The increasingly desperate search to find the next great All Black first-five
New Zealand's greatest ever crop of first-fives surfaced during the 2010s as each Super Rugby franchise, at any given time, laid claim to having the country's best No. 10 on their team.
This is from 2020 and we're still not any closer to finding a new long term first five now 5 years later.
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Of the current crop, I've only seen five NZ First Fives who I think are clearly good enough to play for the All Blacks: Damien McKenzie, Richie Mo'unga, Beauden Barrett, Harry Plummer and Stephen Perofeta.
Jacob Jacomb, Harry Godfrey and Talha Kamara are all maybes for national selection, but I'd like to see them perform in big games under pressure first. Zarn Sullivan and Ruben Love are both primarily Fullbacks in terms of temperament and skillset. Bryn Gatland was a solid performer at Super/NZ Barbadian level. Of the other names mentioned, no thank you.
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We don’t have a first five depth issue.
We have five professional sides.
Until recently one of them could hardly attract talent.We always have 2-3 quality first fives.
That’s not a current issue, that’s us as a small market who cant hold that third guy, unless he breaks through to being the 2nd guy. -
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@booboo but therein lies the problem. Regardless if he's 'Good' or not. He's the clear next cab off the rank, a handy player to have around and would at least provide a solid if not uninspiring performance should he have been needed.
The same can't be said about the next cab of the rank. At some stage Beaudy or Dmac, are going to go down with injury - and with the current depth we have - we could see a real crisis on our hands. Perofeta isn't going to want to stick around for 2 - 3 Cameo's off the bench each season until 2028. He'll be 30 then and knows the odds of making the next world cup are slim.
In fact I'd wager he takes a pay-check overseas in the next twelve to eighteen months.
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Jordie Barrett did play at 10 for the All Blacks for one game in 2019:
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@handa457 said in Current depth at 10:
Perofeta isn't going to want to stick around for 2 - 3 Cameo's off the bench each season until 2028
Isn't that what you are arguing for Plummer?
Sadly the value of the black jersey has taken a hit in recent years, hard to get selected as a young fella, hard to get dropped as an experienced battler...
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Plummer could have stuck around if he wanted to, leaving after one good season is on him. Beauden is old, and McKenzie is little.
If Perofeta wanted to play 10 for the ABs, he needed to move to a team where he would play regularly. I personally don't think he's even proven himself at super or npc level at 10. -
@reprobate said in Current depth at 10:
Plummer could have stuck around if he wanted to, leaving after one good season is on him. Beauden is old, and McKenzie is little.
If Perofeta wanted to play 10 for the ABs, he needed to move to a team where he would play regularly. I personally don't think he's even proven himself at super or npc level at 10.Little schmittle. I'd take Aaron Cruden in a heartbeat.
We are fine with Dmac, if the coaches actually consider their attack and how it could suit his passing game.
On Barrett, I agree he's old. But Sexton was still just as much of a fluffybunny at 36, so Barrett has something to chase there.
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@taniwharugby probably have a few issues here.
The first issue is that we put all our eggs in the Beaudy and DMAC basket. We played approximately fourteen games last season, right? Split that into twenty-eight spots (starting and bench) for a first five. And you had Perofeta get three or four games from memory (two of which were at fullback), and Plummer got one.
So essentially, your third- and fourth-string guys are competing for 3–5 games a season—possibly not even at first five, and more than likely just cameos for a couple of minutes off the bench. (Plummer’s All Blacks career didn’t even involve touching the ball, did it?)
But if you start focusing on depth, then suddenly your starting guys are fresher and, in theory, have longer careers due to less attrition. Your third- and fourth-string guys are competing for eight or ten spots a year between them—maybe even more when you throw fullback into the mix. Even if those appearances are just fifteen to twenty minutes off the bench, that’s still a significant improvement.
Suddenly, over three or four seasons, you’ve got twenty- to thirty-cap All Blacks who are your third- and fourth-string guys. Maybe even a fifth-string bloke with a couple of caps too. Spread your talent across franchises, and suddenly your Super Rugby competition looks healthier.
Imagine a scenario where last season Harry Plummer was at the Blues, Stephen Perofeta at the Highlanders, Brett Cameron at the Canes, Fergus Burke at the Crusaders, and DMAC at the Chiefs. In that case, Perofeta might have eight to ten caps, Brett Cameron two or three, and Fergus Burke either one or two caps deep—or at least an established All Blacks XV player. Burke signs on until 2026, Plummer until 2027, and Perofeta on a deal to 2028. We retain all three first fives longer in New Zealand, all franchises perform better (tell me the Highlanders wouldn’t have won a couple more games with Perofeta at the helm this season).
Young guns like Cashmore, Millar, Jacomb, Godfrey, and Kemara are developed over longer periods, and we don’t lose any of them until post-2028.
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@gt12 said in Current depth at 10:
@reprobate said in Current depth at 10:
Plummer could have stuck around if he wanted to, leaving after one good season is on him. Beauden is old, and McKenzie is little.
If Perofeta wanted to play 10 for the ABs, he needed to move to a team where he would play regularly. I personally don't think he's even proven himself at super or npc level at 10.Little schmittle. I'd take Aaron Cruden in a heartbeat.
We are fine with Dmac, if the coaches actually consider their attack and how it could suit his passing game.
On Barrett, I agree he's old. But Sexton was still just as much of a fluffybunny at 36, so Barrett has something to chase there.
McKenzie is, by miles, the best 10 in the country. But he is small, and injury is a possibility. Beauden is a rubbish 10 to my eyes - but my point is both of those guys have earned their spots through multiple seasons of performance, and it's not like the 10 jersey for the ABs is locked up by Dan Carter for the next decade - if Plummer wanted to have a crack, now is the prime time to do that, not fuck off o/s after one good season. It's not like he's Nick Evans or Carlos stuck forever behind the incumbent - he has nothing to complain about whatsoever.
