Current depth at 10
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@booboo but therein lies the problem. Regardless if he's 'Good' or not. He's the clear next cab off the rank, a handy player to have around and would at least provide a solid if not uninspiring performance should he have been needed.
The same can't be said about the next cab of the rank. At some stage Beaudy or Dmac, are going to go down with injury - and with the current depth we have - we could see a real crisis on our hands. Perofeta isn't going to want to stick around for 2 - 3 Cameo's off the bench each season until 2028. He'll be 30 then and knows the odds of making the next world cup are slim.
In fact I'd wager he takes a pay-check overseas in the next twelve to eighteen months.
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Jordie Barrett did play at 10 for the All Blacks for one game in 2019:
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@handa457 said in Current depth at 10:
Perofeta isn't going to want to stick around for 2 - 3 Cameo's off the bench each season until 2028
Isn't that what you are arguing for Plummer?
Sadly the value of the black jersey has taken a hit in recent years, hard to get selected as a young fella, hard to get dropped as an experienced battler...
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Plummer could have stuck around if he wanted to, leaving after one good season is on him. Beauden is old, and McKenzie is little.
If Perofeta wanted to play 10 for the ABs, he needed to move to a team where he would play regularly. I personally don't think he's even proven himself at super or npc level at 10. -
@reprobate said in Current depth at 10:
Plummer could have stuck around if he wanted to, leaving after one good season is on him. Beauden is old, and McKenzie is little.
If Perofeta wanted to play 10 for the ABs, he needed to move to a team where he would play regularly. I personally don't think he's even proven himself at super or npc level at 10.Little schmittle. I'd take Aaron Cruden in a heartbeat.
We are fine with Dmac, if the coaches actually consider their attack and how it could suit his passing game.
On Barrett, I agree he's old. But Sexton was still just as much of a fluffybunny at 36, so Barrett has something to chase there.
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@taniwharugby probably have a few issues here.
The first issue is that we put all our eggs in the Beaudy and DMAC basket. We played approximately fourteen games last season, right? Split that into twenty-eight spots (starting and bench) for a first five. And you had Perofeta get three or four games from memory (two of which were at fullback), and Plummer got one.
So essentially, your third- and fourth-string guys are competing for 3–5 games a season—possibly not even at first five, and more than likely just cameos for a couple of minutes off the bench. (Plummer’s All Blacks career didn’t even involve touching the ball, did it?)
But if you start focusing on depth, then suddenly your starting guys are fresher and, in theory, have longer careers due to less attrition. Your third- and fourth-string guys are competing for eight or ten spots a year between them—maybe even more when you throw fullback into the mix. Even if those appearances are just fifteen to twenty minutes off the bench, that’s still a significant improvement.
Suddenly, over three or four seasons, you’ve got twenty- to thirty-cap All Blacks who are your third- and fourth-string guys. Maybe even a fifth-string bloke with a couple of caps too. Spread your talent across franchises, and suddenly your Super Rugby competition looks healthier.
Imagine a scenario where last season Harry Plummer was at the Blues, Stephen Perofeta at the Highlanders, Brett Cameron at the Canes, Fergus Burke at the Crusaders, and DMAC at the Chiefs. In that case, Perofeta might have eight to ten caps, Brett Cameron two or three, and Fergus Burke either one or two caps deep—or at least an established All Blacks XV player. Burke signs on until 2026, Plummer until 2027, and Perofeta on a deal to 2028. We retain all three first fives longer in New Zealand, all franchises perform better (tell me the Highlanders wouldn’t have won a couple more games with Perofeta at the helm this season).
Young guns like Cashmore, Millar, Jacomb, Godfrey, and Kemara are developed over longer periods, and we don’t lose any of them until post-2028.
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@gt12 said in Current depth at 10:
@reprobate said in Current depth at 10:
Plummer could have stuck around if he wanted to, leaving after one good season is on him. Beauden is old, and McKenzie is little.
If Perofeta wanted to play 10 for the ABs, he needed to move to a team where he would play regularly. I personally don't think he's even proven himself at super or npc level at 10.Little schmittle. I'd take Aaron Cruden in a heartbeat.
We are fine with Dmac, if the coaches actually consider their attack and how it could suit his passing game.
On Barrett, I agree he's old. But Sexton was still just as much of a fluffybunny at 36, so Barrett has something to chase there.
McKenzie is, by miles, the best 10 in the country. But he is small, and injury is a possibility. Beauden is a rubbish 10 to my eyes - but my point is both of those guys have earned their spots through multiple seasons of performance, and it's not like the 10 jersey for the ABs is locked up by Dan Carter for the next decade - if Plummer wanted to have a crack, now is the prime time to do that, not fuck off o/s after one good season. It's not like he's Nick Evans or Carlos stuck forever behind the incumbent - he has nothing to complain about whatsoever.
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@handa457 Anything that has as a benefit extending Beauden's playing career sounds a bit dubious to me, I'd knock 30 odd caps (at 10) off it if I could.
When has Perofeta ever locked down a starting spot at 10, at any level? He can't even demand that jersey for the 'naki and you think he should have more opportunities at AB level?Building depth is great, but spreading talent across the Super teams (which makes a lot of sense) needs to come first. Quality players on the bench or in the stands is just stupid, but you can't pick guys for the ABs who don't start in that position at the level below.
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@SBW1 There have been talks to try and get RM back since Robertson became ABs Coach. The snag is that RM really likes living and playing in Japan and seems content to represent Tonga at the next World Cup. It would be foolish to assume he's coming back.
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@sparky said in Current depth at 10:
@SBW1 There have been talks to try and get RM back since Robertson became ABs Coach. The snag is that RM really likes living and playing in Japan and seems content to represent Tonga at the next World Cup. It would be foolish to assume he's coming back.
Makes us look desperate almost begging him to return. We need to move on and build with what we have
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@canefan said in Current depth at 10:
@sparky said in Current depth at 10:
@SBW1 There have been talks to try and get RM back since Robertson became ABs Coach. The snag is that RM really likes living and playing in Japan and seems content to represent Tonga at the next World Cup. It would be foolish to assume he's coming back.
Makes us look desperate almost begging him to return. We need to move on and build with what we have
Yep, he's not DC, he's not even peak AC or BB either. I'm not sure he's even 2003 era Carlos. He seems to be the only player in this country who is rated on his Super career rather than his AB career.
The moment he left he should never have been mentioned again. If Razor wanted him he should have convinced him to stay. It's pretty embarrassing all round.
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@reprobate said in Current depth at 10:
@handa457 Anything that has as a benefit extending Beauden's playing career sounds a bit dubious to me, I'd knock 30 odd caps (at 10) off it if I could.
When has Perofeta ever locked down a starting spot at 10, at any level? He can't even demand that jersey for the 'naki and you think he should have more opportunities at AB level?Building depth is great, but spreading talent across the Super teams (which makes a lot of sense) needs to come first. Quality players on the bench or in the stands is just stupid, but you can't pick guys for the ABs who don't start in that position at the level below.
Whilst I might agree with this, historically, multiple AB coaching teams (and the current ones seem to be even worse with their Crusader bias) have been happy to select reserves (even beyond the 23 at times).
So, there is no reason for player migration to other teams unless the player is likely to see very very little time (e.g., outside backs).
If you are likely to see minutes off the bench, why move?
I don't feel like this thread is about AB 1st fives at all, it seems to be a moan about player distribution.
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@gt12 said in Current depth at 10:
@reprobate said in Current depth at 10:
@handa457 Anything that has as a benefit extending Beauden's playing career sounds a bit dubious to me, I'd knock 30 odd caps (at 10) off it if I could.
When has Perofeta ever locked down a starting spot at 10, at any level? He can't even demand that jersey for the 'naki and you think he should have more opportunities at AB level?Building depth is great, but spreading talent across the Super teams (which makes a lot of sense) needs to come first. Quality players on the bench or in the stands is just stupid, but you can't pick guys for the ABs who don't start in that position at the level below.
Whilst I might agree with this, historically, multiple AB coaching teams (and the current ones seem to be even worse with their Crusader bias) have been happy to select reserves (even beyond the 23 at times).
So, there is no reason for player migration to other teams unless the player is likely to see very very little time (e.g., outside backs).
If you are likely to see minutes off the bench, why move?
I don't feel like this thread is about AB 1st fives at all, it seems to be a moan about player distribution.
At 10 though? It's one thing to pick a prop who can scrum well and lift in a lineout off the bench, or a hooker who can throw accurately - but the core role at 10 is game management. How can you possibly judge that in a bench player: you never actually get to see them manage a game?
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@canefan None of them have kicked on recently or are too young. Josh McKay ended up as a fullback/wing. Neither the 2018 and 2019 10s Cullen Moody or Ollie Lewis played NPC.
Alex Harford and James White both played NPC but that's it. Presume White will end up in the full Crusaders squad next year perhaps if JOC doesn't play on.
