Transformer Boks v Irish Projects - Ireland's SA Tour 2016 - Series Decider
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="592385" data-time="1467033532">
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<p>They have a world class lock in Du Toit (Ezebeth is over-rated imo), and their new 9 seems decent.</p>
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<p>I don't see them troubling NZ at present.</p>
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<p>RC: NZ > Austr > SA = Argentina</p>
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<p>Argentina were very poor against France (lost 27 - 0 against a French team composed of second stringers). I fear they won't win a single game in the RC.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="592535" data-time="1467073962"><p>Yeah, but fighting racism with racism is not the way to go about it. There's a reason "quotas" like this are outlawed in most countries, they are fucking stupid and create far more problems then they solve.<br>
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SA is not the only country that has a history of very bad racism. But they are the only country trying to "fix" it using more racism.</p></blockquote>
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I don't disagree that I think it's the wrong way to go about things but I think you have to put it in the context of the recent history of the country. The whole scope and scale was systemic in a way that went beyond run of the mill racism not really surprising that the result is some people have a screwd up way of seeing the big picture. -
<p>Everybody hates quotas but what should they do carry on with the white minority owning all the wealth and positions of economic power while the Black majority are still born into virtually the same stark poverty and hopelessness they faced under apartheid?</p>
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<p>That's a powder keg waiting to explode like Zimbabwe did.</p>
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<p>PS don't give me any sport should be separate from politics cause that didn't fly in 81 and still doesn't</p> -
<p>People shouldn't panic as this is a transformation phase. There will be some short term mediocrity and some bad results but the other option of losing them from the game altogether is a far worse prospect.</p>
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<p>SA did just beat the Irish in the series which is a ok result. As the team and players get more experience and exposure to test rugby they can only get better and there is massive room for future improvement over the long term as their potential player pool becomes greater.</p>
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<p>Since their reintroduction they have been slowly getting worse each season treading water while ignoring their reality. Since 2009 they have been a very inconsistent 2nd/3rd best in the world but with teams like England, Ireland and Argentina improving and them getting slowly worse this ranking was only going to drop anyway. These 'Bok fans who are deserting in droves' who preferred to support this approach (which incidentally saw them lose to Argentina in SA last season and then lose to Japan at the WC, lets not forget their multiple loses to Wales and Ireland, 7 game losing streak against England, struggle to beat the All Blacks even in SA) are like the crusaders fans who packed a hump over Robbie Deans not getting the All Black job. If the team can get through the hard years immediately ahead and come out near the top in another decade they will be back waving their flags and saying how they are loyal SA supporters.</p> -
<p>Optimistically a decade minimum pessimistically 2-3</p>
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<p>Whats the alternative? No quotas and wait for open revolt, civil war and their removal from international sport altogether?</p>
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<p>Mandela wisely chose to avoid this scenario after the end of Apartheid but he is gone now and frustration, race hate and violence have been simmering under the surface for a while now. Only way to stop it is to ensure all races have a investment in seeing it doesn't happen.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="tubbyj" data-cid="592935" data-time="1467244800">
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<p>Whats the alternative? No quotas and wait for open revolt, civil war and their removal from international sport altogether?</p>
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<p>Investing in black/colored rugby communities and have them reach it on merit. A slower process, but more true.</p>
<p>Also, not having the stigma over you that you were only picked because of govt. help.</p> -
<p>Too late for that now. The people running SA rugby had that opportunity but missed it. They wanted to pretend SA rugby could virtually just carry on like it did during apartheid.</p>
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<p>The ANC has to appease their voters and the Boks are a big sympbol of Apartheid 'white only' SA. If they aren't seen to be doing something then their supporters will lose faith with the political process and its ability to make changes.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="tubbyj" data-cid="592935" data-time="1467244800"><p>
Optimistically a decade minimum pessimistically 2-3<br><br>
Whats the alternative? No quotas and wait for open revolt, civil war and their removal from international sport altogether?<br><br>
Mandela wisely chose to avoid this scenario after the end of Apartheid but he is gone now and frustration, race hate and violence have been simmering under the surface for a while now. Only way to stop it is to ensure all races have a investment in seeing it doesn't happen.</p></blockquote>
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So a racial mix in the national rugby team that doesn't exactly match the proportions of the general population is the powder keg that will lead to civil war.<br><br>
In the grand pantheon of stupid statements made on TSF I congratulate you on making the hall of fame.<br><br>
Whoever said above that fighting racism with racism is pathetic is on the money. Integration and acceptance based on ability will fix these issues. Not more bigotry. They need to learn from Nelson and how he was making it work.<br><br>
Anger and bitterness, whilst understandable (but inexcusable), coupled with greed and corruption, is setting their country back 30 years. <br><br>
Hell apartheid ended in '92. 24 years ago. -
<p>depends on your definition of racism though eh... pouring money into black rugby clubs and not white ones, would that not be racism too? </p>
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<p>i agree that positive discrimination is something that needs to be done carefully, but it does need to be done - addressing long term systemic racism and lack of opportunity can only really be achieved by that means. </p>
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<p>surely someone has come up with this already, but if we're talking transformers then shouldn't it be the autoboks?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="593080" data-time="1467275476"><p>
So a racial mix in the national rugby team that doesn't exactly match the proportions of the general population is the powder keg that will lead to civil war.<br><br>
In the grand pantheon of stupid statements made on TSF I congratulate you on making the hall of fame.<br><br>
Whoever said above that fighting racism with racism is pathetic is on the money. Integration and acceptance based on ability will fix these issues. Not more bigotry. They need to learn from Nelson and how he was making it work.<br><br>
Anger and bitterness, whilst understandable (but inexcusable), coupled with greed and corruption, is setting their country back 30 years. <br><br>
Hell apartheid ended in '92. 24 years ago.</p></blockquote>
I don't know what the solution to South Africa's situation is in general but your comments are pretty naive if you think apartheid's after effects can be solved by the govt declaring meritocracy and time. The effects linger socially and economically, and I expect they might for another 24 years. Mandela set a great example but I would be shocked if 1% of the world' s population had the character of that man. In the big picture rugby is hardly that important but I just wish they could view it as an opportunity to do what South Africa failed miserably to do during apartheid and spread the game across races and classes. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="DMX" data-cid="593104" data-time="1467287568"><p>
I don't know what the solution to South Africa's situation is in general but your comments are pretty naive if you think apartheid's after effects can be solved by the govt declaring meritocracy and time. The effects linger socially and economically, and I expect they might for another 24 years. Mandela set a great example but I would be shocked if 1% of the world' s population had the character of that man. In the big picture rugby is hardly that important but I just wish they could view it as an opportunity to do what South Africa failed miserably to do during apartheid and spread the game across races and classes.</p></blockquote>
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Well apparently rugby IS that important. It will cause a civil war remember? <br><br>
Forgetting that those who would revolt are already in power. And that rugby is just a sport.<br><br>
This "transformation" in rugby's case isnt affirmative action. It's power hungry crazed bigots playing politics, pandering to their electorate, and being vindictive.<br><br>
But somehow our collective white man guilt excuses it because there was institutionalised racism a generation ago with throw away lines like "South Africa's situation is very complicated". Yes it is. This isn't the way to fix it. It's a great example of how to perpetuate the divides.<br><br>
BTW I was wrong. Apparently Apartheid ended in 1994. So only 22 years ... -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="593132" data-time="1467317354"><p>Well apparently rugby IS that important. It will cause a civil war remember? <br>
Forgetting that those who would revolt are already in power. And that rugby is just a sport.<br>
This "transformation" in rugby's case isnt affirmative action. It's power hungry crazed bigots playing politics, pandering to their electorate, and being vindictive.<br>
But somehow our collective white man guilt excuses it because there was institutionalised racism a generation ago with throw away lines like "South Africa's situation is very complicated". Yes it is. This isn't the way to fix it. It's a great example of how to perpetuate the divides.<br>
BTW I was wrong. Apparently Apartheid ended in 1994. So only 22 years ...</p></blockquote>
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Your getting your posters confused I did not say anything about a civil war. Plenty of people of this generation have vivid memories of apartheid , I did not live in it but I know people who did and some of the stories will turn your stomach, or at least mine. I don't like transformation targets but in perspective I think "it's very complicated " is an absolutely fair assessment. -
<p>Maybe not representative of the nation as a whole, but I've got a South African acquaintance who is a proud rugby man.</p>
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<p>He constantly puts up "inspiring" videos of schoolboy rugby on facebook, these vids show a bit of school life usually as well and are quite obviously private schools for kids of privilege. </p>
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<p>I'm yet to see a black face in any of these videos.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="593132" data-time="1467317354">
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BTW I was wrong. Apparently Apartheid ended in 1994. So only 22 years ...</p>
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<p>i think you're being sarcastic here?</p>
<p>22 years is very much 'only' in terms of the long term disadvantages incurred by a race of people when they are totally fucked over.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="593171" data-time="1467327617"><p>
i think you're being sarcastic here?<br>
22 years is very much 'only' in terms of the long term disadvantages incurred by a race of people when they are totally fucked over.</p></blockquote>
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No. Not sarcastic at all. "Only 22 years" as opposed the 24 I originally posted. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="DMX" data-cid="593140" data-time="1467320152"><p>
Your getting your posters confused I did not say anything about a civil war. Plenty of people of this generation have vivid memories of apartheid , I did not live in it but I know people who did and some of the stories will turn your stomach, or at least mine. I don't like transformation targets but in perspective I think "it's very complicated " is an absolutely fair assessment.</p></blockquote>
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I know it wasn't you who prophesied the civil war. It seems the apologists (i feel like BSG using that word
) for transformation have two extremes of thought:<br>- Rugby is not important. So it doesn't matter.<br>
- Rugby is really important. So it does matter.<br><br>
The end of any oppressive regime is "complicated". It doesn't excuse the implementation of other oppressive measures in retribution, which is what this is part of.<br><br>
If you and others think it is ok because of past wrongs that's your perogative. I don't think it helps mitigate any past wrongs but in fact perpetuates them.
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="593171" data-time="1467327617"><p>
i think you're being sarcastic here?<br>
22 years is very much 'only' in terms of the long term disadvantages incurred by a race of people when they are totally fucked over.</p></blockquote>
My point being does being fucked over historically give you the moral high ground or the right to fuck them over back even though the guys you're fucking over now are not the same generation who fucked you over in the first place? -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="593193" data-time="1467335811">
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<p>My point being does being fucked over historically give you the moral high ground or the right to fuck them over back even though the guys you're fucking over now are not the same generation who fucked you over in the first place?</p>
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<p>no of course not, it is a tricky line to walk between disadvantaging one segment of society and remedying historical disadvantage of another. giving the previously disadvantaged new artificial advantages to make up for that, is by its nature disadvantageous to everyone else - but their previous advantage was wrong etc...</p>
