Transformer Boks v Irish Projects - Ireland's SA Tour 2016 - Series Decider
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="592186" data-time="1466990051">
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<p>I guess it is easy to say that when you have nothing to do with the team or the country</p>
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<p>It's also easier to be more objective about players - in the past I've seen players get tagged with quota who I'd select above players not considered quota (and some white players who I think aren't good enough to be there, even over other white players).</p> -
<p>I tuned into the U20 SA vs Arg game on Saturday night expecting to see a predominantly black SA team.</p>
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<p>Nup. Actually it was whiter than the big boys to my ignorant eye. Quite a few that would be termed coloureds back in the day though.</p>
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<p>Don't know how this fits into their transformation process but thought it was a bit strange</p>
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<p>Good game though, first 15 I thought the Argies would be blown away but they prevailed and looked bloody good doing it</p> -
Haha, yeah, quotas based on race make no sense. My boy is mixed, so does that make him black or white?? Or does he count as 1/2 a white player and 1/2 a black player in the overall numbers? It's completely retarded and is not, and never will be, the right way to encourage black people to play rugby.
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That was a hopeless challenge by Le roux. Hopeless on so many ways.<br><br>
I don't like the current rules, but even if I had them changed, that would still be foul play imo.<br><br>
Where as eg Naholo in second test was just late but with an orthodox catch attempt, this was just Hail Mary shit.<br><br>
Edit. But in saying that, a yellow would be the right punishment in my parallel universe for Le Roux. Where as a Naholo on the scale wouldn't even be a penalty. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="592320" data-time="1467015024"><p>
Haha, yeah, quotas based on race make no sense. My boy is mixed, so does that make him black or white?? Or does he count as 1/2 a white player and 1/2 a black player in the overall numbers? It's completely retarded and is not, and never will he, the right way to encourage black people to play rugby.</p></blockquote>
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Sounds like a joke now but the difference between being mixed race , black and white used to determine your status, employment, education, life expectancy and many other things. The history of that place is so messed up its hardly a surprise they are dealing with this stuff 25 odd years later. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="cgrant" data-cid="592016" data-time="1466927689">
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<p>This Bok team will not challenge the AB. They have no power upfront and their backs are journeymen.</p>
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<p>They have a world class lock in Du Toit (Ezebeth is over-rated imo), and their new 9 seems decent.</p>
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<p>I don't see them troubling NZ at present.</p>
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<p>RC: NZ > Austr > SA = Argentina</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="DMX" data-cid="592378" data-time="1467029388">
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<p>Sounds like a joke now but the difference between being mixed race , black and white used to determine your status, employment, education, life expectancy and many other things. The history of that place is so messed up its hardly a surprise they are dealing with this stuff 25 odd years later.</p>
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<p>Yeah, but fighting racism with racism is not the way to go about it. There's a reason "quotas" like this are outlawed in most countries, they are fucking stupid and create far more problems then they solve.</p>
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<p>SA is not the only country that has a history of very bad racism. But they are the only country trying to "fix" it using more racism.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="592385" data-time="1467033532">
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<p>They have a world class lock in Du Toit (Ezebeth is over-rated imo), and their new 9 seems decent.</p>
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<p>I don't see them troubling NZ at present.</p>
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<p>RC: NZ > Austr > SA = Argentina</p>
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<p>Argentina were very poor against France (lost 27 - 0 against a French team composed of second stringers). I fear they won't win a single game in the RC.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="592535" data-time="1467073962"><p>Yeah, but fighting racism with racism is not the way to go about it. There's a reason "quotas" like this are outlawed in most countries, they are fucking stupid and create far more problems then they solve.<br>
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SA is not the only country that has a history of very bad racism. But they are the only country trying to "fix" it using more racism.</p></blockquote>
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I don't disagree that I think it's the wrong way to go about things but I think you have to put it in the context of the recent history of the country. The whole scope and scale was systemic in a way that went beyond run of the mill racism not really surprising that the result is some people have a screwd up way of seeing the big picture. -
<p>Everybody hates quotas but what should they do carry on with the white minority owning all the wealth and positions of economic power while the Black majority are still born into virtually the same stark poverty and hopelessness they faced under apartheid?</p>
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<p>That's a powder keg waiting to explode like Zimbabwe did.</p>
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<p>PS don't give me any sport should be separate from politics cause that didn't fly in 81 and still doesn't</p> -
<p>People shouldn't panic as this is a transformation phase. There will be some short term mediocrity and some bad results but the other option of losing them from the game altogether is a far worse prospect.</p>
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<p>SA did just beat the Irish in the series which is a ok result. As the team and players get more experience and exposure to test rugby they can only get better and there is massive room for future improvement over the long term as their potential player pool becomes greater.</p>
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<p>Since their reintroduction they have been slowly getting worse each season treading water while ignoring their reality. Since 2009 they have been a very inconsistent 2nd/3rd best in the world but with teams like England, Ireland and Argentina improving and them getting slowly worse this ranking was only going to drop anyway. These 'Bok fans who are deserting in droves' who preferred to support this approach (which incidentally saw them lose to Argentina in SA last season and then lose to Japan at the WC, lets not forget their multiple loses to Wales and Ireland, 7 game losing streak against England, struggle to beat the All Blacks even in SA) are like the crusaders fans who packed a hump over Robbie Deans not getting the All Black job. If the team can get through the hard years immediately ahead and come out near the top in another decade they will be back waving their flags and saying how they are loyal SA supporters.</p> -
<p>Optimistically a decade minimum pessimistically 2-3</p>
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<p>Whats the alternative? No quotas and wait for open revolt, civil war and their removal from international sport altogether?</p>
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<p>Mandela wisely chose to avoid this scenario after the end of Apartheid but he is gone now and frustration, race hate and violence have been simmering under the surface for a while now. Only way to stop it is to ensure all races have a investment in seeing it doesn't happen.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="tubbyj" data-cid="592935" data-time="1467244800">
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<p>Whats the alternative? No quotas and wait for open revolt, civil war and their removal from international sport altogether?</p>
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<p>Investing in black/colored rugby communities and have them reach it on merit. A slower process, but more true.</p>
<p>Also, not having the stigma over you that you were only picked because of govt. help.</p> -
<p>Too late for that now. The people running SA rugby had that opportunity but missed it. They wanted to pretend SA rugby could virtually just carry on like it did during apartheid.</p>
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<p>The ANC has to appease their voters and the Boks are a big sympbol of Apartheid 'white only' SA. If they aren't seen to be doing something then their supporters will lose faith with the political process and its ability to make changes.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="tubbyj" data-cid="592935" data-time="1467244800"><p>
Optimistically a decade minimum pessimistically 2-3<br><br>
Whats the alternative? No quotas and wait for open revolt, civil war and their removal from international sport altogether?<br><br>
Mandela wisely chose to avoid this scenario after the end of Apartheid but he is gone now and frustration, race hate and violence have been simmering under the surface for a while now. Only way to stop it is to ensure all races have a investment in seeing it doesn't happen.</p></blockquote>
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So a racial mix in the national rugby team that doesn't exactly match the proportions of the general population is the powder keg that will lead to civil war.<br><br>
In the grand pantheon of stupid statements made on TSF I congratulate you on making the hall of fame.<br><br>
Whoever said above that fighting racism with racism is pathetic is on the money. Integration and acceptance based on ability will fix these issues. Not more bigotry. They need to learn from Nelson and how he was making it work.<br><br>
Anger and bitterness, whilst understandable (but inexcusable), coupled with greed and corruption, is setting their country back 30 years. <br><br>
Hell apartheid ended in '92. 24 years ago. -
<p>depends on your definition of racism though eh... pouring money into black rugby clubs and not white ones, would that not be racism too? </p>
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<p>i agree that positive discrimination is something that needs to be done carefully, but it does need to be done - addressing long term systemic racism and lack of opportunity can only really be achieved by that means. </p>
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<p>surely someone has come up with this already, but if we're talking transformers then shouldn't it be the autoboks?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="593080" data-time="1467275476"><p>
So a racial mix in the national rugby team that doesn't exactly match the proportions of the general population is the powder keg that will lead to civil war.<br><br>
In the grand pantheon of stupid statements made on TSF I congratulate you on making the hall of fame.<br><br>
Whoever said above that fighting racism with racism is pathetic is on the money. Integration and acceptance based on ability will fix these issues. Not more bigotry. They need to learn from Nelson and how he was making it work.<br><br>
Anger and bitterness, whilst understandable (but inexcusable), coupled with greed and corruption, is setting their country back 30 years. <br><br>
Hell apartheid ended in '92. 24 years ago.</p></blockquote>
I don't know what the solution to South Africa's situation is in general but your comments are pretty naive if you think apartheid's after effects can be solved by the govt declaring meritocracy and time. The effects linger socially and economically, and I expect they might for another 24 years. Mandela set a great example but I would be shocked if 1% of the world' s population had the character of that man. In the big picture rugby is hardly that important but I just wish they could view it as an opportunity to do what South Africa failed miserably to do during apartheid and spread the game across races and classes. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="DMX" data-cid="593104" data-time="1467287568"><p>
I don't know what the solution to South Africa's situation is in general but your comments are pretty naive if you think apartheid's after effects can be solved by the govt declaring meritocracy and time. The effects linger socially and economically, and I expect they might for another 24 years. Mandela set a great example but I would be shocked if 1% of the world' s population had the character of that man. In the big picture rugby is hardly that important but I just wish they could view it as an opportunity to do what South Africa failed miserably to do during apartheid and spread the game across races and classes.</p></blockquote>
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Well apparently rugby IS that important. It will cause a civil war remember? <br><br>
Forgetting that those who would revolt are already in power. And that rugby is just a sport.<br><br>
This "transformation" in rugby's case isnt affirmative action. It's power hungry crazed bigots playing politics, pandering to their electorate, and being vindictive.<br><br>
But somehow our collective white man guilt excuses it because there was institutionalised racism a generation ago with throw away lines like "South Africa's situation is very complicated". Yes it is. This isn't the way to fix it. It's a great example of how to perpetuate the divides.<br><br>
BTW I was wrong. Apparently Apartheid ended in 1994. So only 22 years ...
