All Blacks v France
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@Mauss said in All Blacks v France:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v France:
They donāt really have a bigger pack to select.
Perhaps bigger is not the right word. Players who thrive more in the tight spaces, something like that? Against France, NZ tried to keep the ball tight and go through the middle in the French 22 but the pick and go was very messy. Cleaners were often unable to keep their feet at the ruck and carriers didn't dominate contact, leading to a lack of forward momentum and French turnover ball.
Irelandās win against South Africa in Durban came after selecting Beirne at six and playing more directly. They then tried a similar line-up against NZ (without playing as direct) and it didnāt work. I donāt want to simplify things too much, but with how close the top teams are (with Argentina and Australia on the rise), Iād think a horses for courses-approach might be best. In this approach, youād have something like a "Crusader" gameplan for certain opponents (Ireland, England, Australia, Argentina) while taking on a Cotter/Schmidt/Blues-style for others like South Africa and France. The latter means more aggressive ruck defence, lots of blindside switches in attack, and picking players who excel in the pick and go and are able to dominate contact in close (Tuāungafasi, Sotutu, Savea, Taukeiāaho, Tuipulotu, etc.).
I donāt think itās particularly likely that Robertson is going to go for something like this, but he canāt keep losing to teams with this playing style without coming onto serious pressure. I also donāt think this is unique to Robertson. Anyone who has been watching NZ U20s rugby for the past 12 years will probably have noticed how much these teams struggle with forward packs who stay tight together and flood the breakdown on attack and defence (some examples: SA 2012, ā14, ā19; FR 2018, ā23, ā24; WL 2012, ā19; IRL 2016; AU 2019, ā23). Those are a lot of coaches ā Penney, Boyd, Robertson, Philpott, Laidlaw, Gibbes ā who havenāt been able to successfully tackle this issue.
Robertson is a big believer in cohesion so that would go against this sort of mixed approach. I guess weāll find out in the coming years whether cohesion is enough to overcome this close quarter forward-style.
It's totally philosophical.
If we wanted to play like France we totally could. But we are playing to outflank.
France play like an old school pack. Run hard as fuck, bash the ruck.
Neither is better than the other really. It comes down to if you do what you want AND stop the other team doing what they want.The ABs should watch Isaiah Yeo from Penrith. He's the master of the pass out the back, but if it's not on, he takes 12 metres.
If we can learn to make the pass while actually running we'll be unstoppable
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@stodders said in All Blacks v France:
@Billy-Tell or South African ššš resident Saffas exempted - but my God, some of your fellow countrymen and women have a pathological victim complex going on. Andrew Brace tried to rob the Boks on Saturday rather than the Boks being indisciplined and inviting pressure.
Iām not South African! Nor English!
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France:
@Halfback said in All Blacks v France:
@No-Quarter Its got to be hard to make a decision like that after 75 minutes of running around. I don't envy his role in that respect, brain must be frazzled.
The longer you look at his decision the worse it gets though:
I think it was the 2 previous restarts we fluffed? 1 penalty and I think the other was a knock on? Can't fully remember. I'd prefer to fluff a restart in the lead.
If we had scored, the French would have to score a try to win minimum, surely it would be better to rumble up the field with possession, in the lead by a score, trying to achieve the same thing as if you were 1 point behind.
On that note, not to Barrett bash, I think Savea should be captain. I think Scotts position may be under threat soon. Savea not so much.
Scott Barrettās position is no way in danger he will stay captain and starting lock.
There is some right BS being spoken about his performances.
Savea is the one who should be gone to the bench at least he has been a highlight reel for some time now.Circle the wagons cantabs!!!!!
He nailed all his line out takes,Pinched a French throw,made a lot of good carries,was one of the leading tacklers,and was in the engine room of a dominant scrum.
Vai had a very good first half but threw the stupid pass that led to the French wingers try.
Not sure what Barrett was expected to do kick the goals kick for touch.throw into the linouts and catch it at the same time.
Just dribble being written. -
Sigh
Back to cricket Chris -
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks v France:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France:
@Billy-Tell or South African ššš resident Saffas exempted - but my God, some of your fellow countrymen and women have a pathological victim complex going on. Andrew Brace tried to rob the Boks on Saturday rather than the Boks being indisciplined and inviting pressure.
Iām not South African! Nor English!
Sure, sure š¤«
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@Chris said in All Blacks v France:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France:
@Halfback said in All Blacks v France:
@No-Quarter Its got to be hard to make a decision like that after 75 minutes of running around. I don't envy his role in that respect, brain must be frazzled.
The longer you look at his decision the worse it gets though:
I think it was the 2 previous restarts we fluffed? 1 penalty and I think the other was a knock on? Can't fully remember. I'd prefer to fluff a restart in the lead.
If we had scored, the French would have to score a try to win minimum, surely it would be better to rumble up the field with possession, in the lead by a score, trying to achieve the same thing as if you were 1 point behind.
On that note, not to Barrett bash, I think Savea should be captain. I think Scotts position may be under threat soon. Savea not so much.
Scott Barrettās position is no way in danger he will stay captain and starting lock.
There is some right BS being spoken about his performances.
Savea is the one who should be gone to the bench at least he has been a highlight reel for some time now.Circle the wagons cantabs!!!!!
He nailed all his line out takes,Pinched a French throw,made a lot of good carries,was one of the leading tacklers,and was in the engine room of a dominant scrum.
Vai had a very good first half but threw the stupid pass that led to the French wingers try.
Not sure what Barrett was expected to do kick the goals kick for touch.throw into the linouts and catch it at the same time.
Just dribble being written.Not sure what youāre watching Chris. He looks very pedestrian to me. No dominant tackles, no carries of note, lots of his little ānot really close to a charge-down run-throughsā though.
Vaiāi on the other hand is far more dominant at line out, far more prominent with ball in hand. Patrick off the bench has also surprised on the upside this year.
I think SB has been put 3rd best lock, and I think Darry and Holland might just push him to #5 best next year.
Lucky heās a Barrett though I guess, that tends to extend your career by a year or 2 minimum
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@voodoo said in All Blacks v France:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France:
@Chris said in All Blacks v France:
@Halfback said in All Blacks v France:
@No-Quarter Its got to be hard to make a decision like that after 75 minutes of running around. I don't envy his role in that respect, brain must be frazzled.
The longer you look at his decision the worse it gets though:
I think it was the 2 previous restarts we fluffed? 1 penalty and I think the other was a knock on? Can't fully remember. I'd prefer to fluff a restart in the lead.
If we had scored, the French would have to score a try to win minimum, surely it would be better to rumble up the field with possession, in the lead by a score, trying to achieve the same thing as if you were 1 point behind.
On that note, not to Barrett bash, I think Savea should be captain. I think Scotts position may be under threat soon. Savea not so much.
Scott Barrettās position is no way in danger he will stay captain and starting lock.
There is some right BS being spoken about his performances.
Savea is the one who should be gone to the bench at least he has been a highlight reel for some time now.Circle the wagons cantabs!!!!!
He nailed all his line out takes,Pinched a French throw,made a lot of good carries,was one of the leading tacklers,and was in the engine room of a dominant scrum.
Vai had a very good first half but threw the stupid pass that led to the French wingers try.
Not sure what Barrett was expected to do kick the goals kick for touch.throw into the linouts and catch it at the same time.
Just dribble being written.Not sure what youāre watching Chris. He looks very pedestrian to me. No dominant tackles, no carries of note, lots of his little ānot really close to a charge-down run-throughsā though.
Vaiāi on the other hand is far more dominant at line out, far more prominent with ball in hand. Patrick off the bench has also surprised on the upside this year.
I think SB has been put 3rd best lock, and I think Darry and Holland might just push him to #5 best next year.
Lucky heās a Barrett though I guess, that tends to extend your career by a year or 2 minimum
Well are watching different games then.
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He's doing nothing "wrong" but neither is he really adding anything. We're giving him a pass mark and not much more.
@voodoo is completely right. If vaai is already past him (and it's clear he is) and Patty T is thr bench guy, it only takes Holland to do.basics AND add something else and boom, scooter is another bad selection in the 23.
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@voodoo said in All Blacks v France:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
Huh, I thought Scooter had one of his better games on Saturday. Looked to be getting back to his bustling type play.
Maybe give him a run at 15?
Passes too much and kicks too accurately.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v France:
He sets up other players well, is definitely not selfish (don't know where that is coming from)
Right, so the multiple instances of him ignoring support and/or taking the limp option then turning the ball over is great team play? Keep drinking the coolade man. What's good about him not looking to link when he breaks, or overrunning the ball carrier, kicking the ball away randomly or throwing a shit 20/80 pass when he's eventually caught? Yeah very unselfish.
Needs a comma.
I'd like to see his assist stats compared to other players. He seems to be a good link player. I am not sure you have a healthy perspective about this particular player.... -
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v France:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v France:
He sets up other players well, is definitely not selfish (don't know where that is coming from)
Right, so the multiple instances of him ignoring support and/or taking the limp option then turning the ball over is great team play? Keep drinking the coolade man. What's good about him not looking to link when he breaks, or overrunning the ball carrier, kicking the ball away randomly or throwing a shit 20/80 pass when he's eventually caught? Yeah very unselfish.
Needs a comma.
I'd like to see his assist stats compared to other players. He seems to be a good link player. I am not sure you have a healthy perspective about this particular player....Iām with @Bones on this.
Heās not selfish in a āI couldnāt care less about my teammates ā kinda way, heās more selfish in a āgo for the hero play every timeā kinda way
Whether thatās selfishness, immaturity, or just poor basic skills, he just takes a lot of bad options.
When you think about all his best moments, theyāre all individual plays. Not bad in and of itself, but when you put them alongside all the chances heās had to put other guys into the same situation by making a simple non-flashy play, they get outnumbered by his errors
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v France:
I'd like to see his assist stats compared to other players. He seems to be a good link player.
Keen as! I'm intrigued what you're watching to think he's a good link player.
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Scott Barrett was very good against England and Ireland. If you watch the tape back you'll see all the important things he's doing. I've not had a chance to watch the France game again just yet.
Will Jordan... Yeah, he's not really a playmaking fullback. He looks his best when he's running hard and straight into the line but that means being blind to some of the options around you. His distribution game is pretty awful too, two or three times on Saturday he threw very ponderous passes. He's no Ben Smith. Think the All Blacks would get the most out of him on the wing.
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I canāt say Iāve been a fan of Jordan on the wing. Right wings typically have to make do with limited space, so a quick step (NMS), fend (Jane) or deceptive strength in contact (Teleāa) are crucial. Teleāaās performance against England for me represents what you really want from your 14. Getting the most out of very little.
Iād argue that Jordan possesses none of those typical right wing-traits. When playing on the wing with limited space, he tends to get physically bullied by his opposition winger (I have bad memories of Kolbe manhandling him in the RWC final).
His strengths seem to me to be his ability to scan defences and to produce an acceleration through the gap. While this is less visible and I canāt really provide any evidence of this, he does strike me as a good communicator. At the very least, he is talking a lot throughout games.
So, personally, Iād want him to improve as a fullback (and like many have said here, he has a lot to improve on). If he doesnāt, he probably falls outside of the 23 for me.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks v France:
I canāt say Iāve been a fan of Jordan on the wing. Right wings typically have to make do with limited space, so a quick step (NMS), fend (Jane) or deceptive strength in contact (Teleāa) are crucial. Teleāaās performance against England for me represents what you really want from your 14. Getting the most out of very little.
Iād argue that Jordan possesses none of those typical right wing-traits. When playing on the wing with limited space, he tends to get physically bullied by his opposition winger (I have bad memories of Kolbe manhandling him in the RWC final).
His strengths seem to me to be his ability to scan defences and to produce an acceleration through the gap. While this is less visible and I canāt really provide any evidence of this, he does strike me as a good communicator. At the very least, he is talking a lot throughout games.
So, personally, Iād want him to improve as a fullback (and like many have said here, he has a lot to improve on). If he doesnāt, he probably falls outside of the 23 for me.
Can you find him a Welsh passport please?
I'd let him play anywhere he wants.
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@MiketheSnow I'm not writing him off at all. All I'm saying is that, at the moment, Tele'a is a better 14 and McKenzie is a better 15. I don't think those are particularly unfair calls. If there were more depth at first five, I think McKenzie would've been given more time at fullback.
I also think Jordan is more than capable of stepping up. He just needs to start cutting those errors out of his game.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks v France:
@MiketheSnow I'm not writing him off at all. All I'm saying is that, at the moment, Tele'a is a better 14 and McKenzie is a better 15. I don't think those are particularly unfair calls. If there were more depth at first five, I think McKenzie would've been given more time at fullback.
I also think Jordan is more than capable of stepping up. He just needs to start cutting those errors out of his game.
trouble is we don't have many quality 10s.
