All Blacks v France

[Old Samurai Jack]

@Bones said in All Blacks v France:

@nzzp said in All Blacks v France:

Y'all should also apologise to @Bones; he's been consistent with his observations of Will Jordan - elite in some facets, but missing some bits that make great Test fullbacks. That's not a hit on Will, just that he's a better wing where the things he isn't as good at don't get exposed so much.

Yeah look, Will can do some amazing stuff and fuck it's pretty to watch him in space. Just what annoys me is he still plays like that guy growing up who was bigger and better than everyone and so just grabbed the ball and did it on his own. It's not stuff that can't be worked on and I certainly would've hoped to see vast improvement this season - but there's nothing.

How is it that he's still consistently choosing selfish options, constantly overrunning players with the ball, etc? He doesn't value possession and just readily hands it back to the opposition.

If I could see even a tiny bit of improvement across his many seasons then I would be more comfortable, but he just doesn't appear to have any application or desire to improve - or he's not being taught well.

Whilst I agree his best position is wing, some of the things you have attacked Will on are just plain silly. He sets up other players well, is definitely not selfish (don't know where that is coming from), and his defensive positioning is very good (could be more physical in the tackle of course).
His best position is wing I think because he doesn't have the kicking game or maybe even the decision nous for fullback I think (neither does Jordie on the decision front....). On the wing he can roam and not have the same responsibilities that limits a fullback from getting in the game.

[Bones]

@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v France:

He sets up other players well, is definitely not selfish (don't know where that is coming from)

Right, so the multiple instances of him ignoring support and/or taking the limp option then turning the ball over is great team play? Keep drinking the coolade man. What's good about him not looking to link when he breaks, or overrunning the ball carrier, kicking the ball away randomly or throwing a shit 20/80 pass when he's eventually caught? Yeah very unselfish.

[nzzp]

@Bones said in All Blacks v France:

Yeah very unselfish

In fairness, I don't think it's selfishness. I think it's mindset and decision making.

The brilliance in some facets blinds some people to areas he's not as good.

[DaGrubster]

@Mauss said in All Blacks v France:

@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks v France:

The ref was fine. Let’s not become Irish.

My comment on Amashukeli wasn’t intended as a slight against him. I also think it’s possible to talk about refereeing without it turning into ref bashing.

A ref’s interpretation of the breakdown is always important but I feel like it gains more weight when you have two opposing teams with very different playing philosophies, like New Zealand and France have. Whereas the French forward pack generally plays like a tight, cohesive unit (where they are always within a 20 metre radius of each other), the ABs like to keep width and have forwards and backs dispersed across a backline.

That also means that the tackle area becomes very important for a side like the All Blacks, as they try to limit the number of players committed to securing the ruck. When the tackle area is a mess, and you have, for example, only Will Jordan and Sevu Reece available to clean out in a ten metre radius, then it’s easy to see how that quickly turns into a problem.

That being said, there’s certainly a case to be made that the current game plan isn’t working when facing sides like France and the Springboks. In all three tests, New Zealand lost the game through their inability to win the breakdown, both on attack and defence, with France and South Africa finding it too easy to generate scores through the pick and go when within the NZ 22. In all three tests, Robertson’s solution – of running them off their feet by keeping the ball – hasn’t worked. And you’d have to wonder whether he should radically alter his approach to these teams, for example, by picking a bigger pack and by tightening the game plan.

The current game plan can still work, I think, but then you have to have a number of strike moves off of lineout and scrum which almost guarantee points (similar to how France had that maul try with the early shift up their sleeve). Currently, the ABs are getting too little purchase of those attacks for them to win these test matches.

So again, definitely not intending to bash the ref. Simply trying to get some more insight on what went wrong against France.

They don’t really have a bigger pack to select.

Holland would make it bigger though.

[DaGrubster]

@Bones said in All Blacks v France:

@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v France:

He sets up other players well, is definitely not selfish (don't know where that is coming from)

Right, so the multiple instances of him ignoring support and/or taking the limp option then turning the ball over is great team play? Keep drinking the coolade man. What's good about him not looking to link when he breaks, or overrunning the ball carrier, kicking the ball away randomly or throwing a shit 20/80 pass when he's eventually caught? Yeah very unselfish.

It’s Kool Aid.

I’ve got your back bro

[Halfback]

@No-Quarter Its got to be hard to make a decision like that after 75 minutes of running around. I don't envy his role in that respect, brain must be frazzled.

The longer you look at his decision the worse it gets though:

I think it was the 2 previous restarts we fluffed? 1 penalty and I think the other was a knock on? Can't fully remember. I'd prefer to fluff a restart in the lead.

If we had scored, the French would have to score a try to win minimum, surely it would be better to rumble up the field with possession, in the lead by a score, trying to achieve the same thing as if you were 1 point behind.

On that note, not to Barrett bash, I think Savea should be captain. I think Scotts position may be under threat soon. Savea not so much.

[stodders]

@Billy-Tell or South African 😂😂😂 resident Saffas exempted - but my God, some of your fellow countrymen and women have a pathological victim complex going on. Andrew Brace tried to rob the Boks on Saturday rather than the Boks being indisciplined and inviting pressure.

[Billy Webb]

@stodders said in All Blacks v France:

@Billy-Tell or South African 😂😂😂 resident Saffas exempted - but my God, some of your fellow countrymen and women have a pathological victim complex going on. Andrew Brace tried to rob the Boks on Saturday rather than the Boks being indisciplined and inviting pressure.

Are you confusing me and @Billy-Tell ?

(For the record, I think the Boks went through a 20 minute patch of the worst ruck indiscipline I'd seen in quite some time. Rightfully penalized for it).

[Bones]

@nzzp said in All Blacks v France:

@Bones said in All Blacks v France:

Yeah very unselfish

In fairness, I don't think it's selfishness. I think it's mindset and decision making.

The brilliance in some facets blinds some people to areas he's not as good.

Fair - but to me it looks more like he puts the blinkers on and doesn't trust that he can do better with teamwork. You reckon he just gets too frazzled? Not ideal from someone I'd say should be experienced by now.

[Chris]

@Halfback said in All Blacks v France:

@No-Quarter Its got to be hard to make a decision like that after 75 minutes of running around. I don't envy his role in that respect, brain must be frazzled.

The longer you look at his decision the worse it gets though:

I think it was the 2 previous restarts we fluffed? 1 penalty and I think the other was a knock on? Can't fully remember. I'd prefer to fluff a restart in the lead.

If we had scored, the French would have to score a try to win minimum, surely it would be better to rumble up the field with possession, in the lead by a score, trying to achieve the same thing as if you were 1 point behind.

On that note, not to Barrett bash, I think Savea should be captain. I think Scotts position may be under threat soon. Savea not so much.

Scott Barrett’s position is no way in danger he will stay captain and starting lock.
There is some right BS being spoken about his performances.
Savea is the one who should be gone to the bench at least he has been a highlight reel for some time now.

[Mauss]

@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v France:

They don’t really have a bigger pack to select.

Perhaps bigger is not the right word. Players who thrive more in the tight spaces, something like that? Against France, NZ tried to keep the ball tight and go through the middle in the French 22 but the pick and go was very messy. Cleaners were often unable to keep their feet at the ruck and carriers didn't dominate contact, leading to a lack of forward momentum and French turnover ball.

Ireland’s win against South Africa in Durban came after selecting Beirne at six and playing more directly. They then tried a similar line-up against NZ (without playing as direct) and it didn’t work. I don’t want to simplify things too much, but with how close the top teams are (with Argentina and Australia on the rise), I’d think a horses for courses-approach might be best. In this approach, you’d have something like a "Crusader" gameplan for certain opponents (Ireland, England, Australia, Argentina) while taking on a Cotter/Schmidt/Blues-style for others like South Africa and France. The latter means more aggressive ruck defence, lots of blindside switches in attack, and picking players who excel in the pick and go and are able to dominate contact in close (Tu’ungafasi, Sotutu, Savea, Taukei’aho, Tuipulotu, etc.).

I don’t think it’s particularly likely that Robertson is going to go for something like this, but he can’t keep losing to teams with this playing style without coming onto serious pressure. I also don’t think this is unique to Robertson. Anyone who has been watching NZ U20s rugby for the past 12 years will probably have noticed how much these teams struggle with forward packs who stay tight together and flood the breakdown on attack and defence (some examples: SA 2012, ’14, ’19; FR 2018, ’23, ’24; WL 2012, ’19; IRL 2016; AU 2019, ’23). Those are a lot of coaches – Penney, Boyd, Robertson, Philpott, Laidlaw, Gibbes – who haven’t been able to successfully tackle this issue.

Robertson is a big believer in cohesion so that would go against this sort of mixed approach. I guess we’ll find out in the coming years whether cohesion is enough to overcome this close quarter forward-style.

[brodean]

@Mauss said in All Blacks v France:

@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v France:

They don’t really have a bigger pack to select.

Perhaps bigger is not the right word. Players who thrive more in the tight spaces, something like that? Against France, NZ tried to keep the ball tight and go through the middle in the French 22 but the pick and go was very messy. Cleaners were often unable to keep their feet at the ruck and carriers didn't dominate contact, leading to a lack of forward momentum and French turnover ball.

Ireland’s win against South Africa in Durban came after selecting Beirne at six and playing more directly. They then tried a similar line-up against NZ (without playing as direct) and it didn’t work. I don’t want to simplify things too much, but with how close the top teams are (with Argentina and Australia on the rise), I’d think a horses for courses-approach might be best. In this approach, you’d have something like a "Crusader" gameplan for certain opponents (Ireland, England, Australia, Argentina) while taking on a Cotter/Schmidt/Blues-style for others like South Africa and France. The latter means more aggressive ruck defence, lots of blindside switches in attack, and picking players who excel in the pick and go and are able to dominate contact in close (Tu’ungafasi, Sotutu, Savea, Taukei’aho, Tuipulotu, etc.).

I don’t think it’s particularly likely that Robertson is going to go for something like this, but he can’t keep losing to teams with this playing style without coming onto serious pressure. I also don’t think this is unique to Robertson. Anyone who has been watching NZ U20s rugby for the past 12 years will probably have noticed how much these teams struggle with forward packs who stay tight together and flood the breakdown on attack and defence (some examples: SA 2012, ’14, ’19; FR 2018, ’23, ’24; WL 2012, ’19; IRL 2016; AU 2019, ’23). Those are a lot of coaches – Penney, Boyd, Robertson, Philpott, Laidlaw, Gibbes – who haven’t been able to successfully tackle this issue.

Robertson is a big believer in cohesion so that would go against this sort of mixed approach. I guess we’ll find out in the coming years whether cohesion is enough to overcome this close quarter forward-style.

I agree with your comment about the lack of forward momentum.

Robertson hasn't picked the squad to play Vern ball when needed. You would need to add 3 big loose forwards to the current squad and 2 big midfielders. In the game which the Blues beat the Canes Heem absolutely dominated Jordie.

[mariner4life]

@Chris said in All Blacks v France:

@Halfback said in All Blacks v France:

@No-Quarter Its got to be hard to make a decision like that after 75 minutes of running around. I don't envy his role in that respect, brain must be frazzled.

The longer you look at his decision the worse it gets though:

I think it was the 2 previous restarts we fluffed? 1 penalty and I think the other was a knock on? Can't fully remember. I'd prefer to fluff a restart in the lead.

If we had scored, the French would have to score a try to win minimum, surely it would be better to rumble up the field with possession, in the lead by a score, trying to achieve the same thing as if you were 1 point behind.

On that note, not to Barrett bash, I think Savea should be captain. I think Scotts position may be under threat soon. Savea not so much.

Scott Barrett’s position is no way in danger he will stay captain and starting lock.
There is some right BS being spoken about his performances.
Savea is the one who should be gone to the bench at least he has been a highlight reel for some time now.

Circle the wagons cantabs!!!!!

[mariner4life]

@Mauss said in All Blacks v France:

@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v France:

They don’t really have a bigger pack to select.

Perhaps bigger is not the right word. Players who thrive more in the tight spaces, something like that? Against France, NZ tried to keep the ball tight and go through the middle in the French 22 but the pick and go was very messy. Cleaners were often unable to keep their feet at the ruck and carriers didn't dominate contact, leading to a lack of forward momentum and French turnover ball.

Ireland’s win against South Africa in Durban came after selecting Beirne at six and playing more directly. They then tried a similar line-up against NZ (without playing as direct) and it didn’t work. I don’t want to simplify things too much, but with how close the top teams are (with Argentina and Australia on the rise), I’d think a horses for courses-approach might be best. In this approach, you’d have something like a "Crusader" gameplan for certain opponents (Ireland, England, Australia, Argentina) while taking on a Cotter/Schmidt/Blues-style for others like South Africa and France. The latter means more aggressive ruck defence, lots of blindside switches in attack, and picking players who excel in the pick and go and are able to dominate contact in close (Tu’ungafasi, Sotutu, Savea, Taukei’aho, Tuipulotu, etc.).

I don’t think it’s particularly likely that Robertson is going to go for something like this, but he can’t keep losing to teams with this playing style without coming onto serious pressure. I also don’t think this is unique to Robertson. Anyone who has been watching NZ U20s rugby for the past 12 years will probably have noticed how much these teams struggle with forward packs who stay tight together and flood the breakdown on attack and defence (some examples: SA 2012, ’14, ’19; FR 2018, ’23, ’24; WL 2012, ’19; IRL 2016; AU 2019, ’23). Those are a lot of coaches – Penney, Boyd, Robertson, Philpott, Laidlaw, Gibbes – who haven’t been able to successfully tackle this issue.

Robertson is a big believer in cohesion so that would go against this sort of mixed approach. I guess we’ll find out in the coming years whether cohesion is enough to overcome this close quarter forward-style.

It's totally philosophical.

If we wanted to play like France we totally could. But we are playing to outflank.
France play like an old school pack. Run hard as fuck, bash the ruck.
Neither is better than the other really. It comes down to if you do what you want AND stop the other team doing what they want.

The ABs should watch Isaiah Yeo from Penrith. He's the master of the pass out the back, but if it's not on, he takes 12 metres.

If we can learn to make the pass while actually running we'll be unstoppable

[Billy Tell]

@stodders said in All Blacks v France:

@Billy-Tell or South African 😂😂😂 resident Saffas exempted - but my God, some of your fellow countrymen and women have a pathological victim complex going on. Andrew Brace tried to rob the Boks on Saturday rather than the Boks being indisciplined and inviting pressure.

I’m not South African! Nor English!

[Chris]

@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France:

@Chris said in All Blacks v France:

@Halfback said in All Blacks v France:

@No-Quarter Its got to be hard to make a decision like that after 75 minutes of running around. I don't envy his role in that respect, brain must be frazzled.

The longer you look at his decision the worse it gets though:

I think it was the 2 previous restarts we fluffed? 1 penalty and I think the other was a knock on? Can't fully remember. I'd prefer to fluff a restart in the lead.

If we had scored, the French would have to score a try to win minimum, surely it would be better to rumble up the field with possession, in the lead by a score, trying to achieve the same thing as if you were 1 point behind.

On that note, not to Barrett bash, I think Savea should be captain. I think Scotts position may be under threat soon. Savea not so much.

Scott Barrett’s position is no way in danger he will stay captain and starting lock.
There is some right BS being spoken about his performances.
Savea is the one who should be gone to the bench at least he has been a highlight reel for some time now.

Circle the wagons cantabs!!!!!

He nailed all his line out takes,Pinched a French throw,made a lot of good carries,was one of the leading tacklers,and was in the engine room of a dominant scrum.
Vai had a very good first half but threw the stupid pass that led to the French wingers try.
Not sure what Barrett was expected to do kick the goals kick for touch.throw into the linouts and catch it at the same time.
Just dribble being written.

[mariner4life]

Sigh
Back to cricket Chris

[voodoo]

@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks v France:

@stodders said in All Blacks v France:

@Billy-Tell or South African 😂😂😂 resident Saffas exempted - but my God, some of your fellow countrymen and women have a pathological victim complex going on. Andrew Brace tried to rob the Boks on Saturday rather than the Boks being indisciplined and inviting pressure.

I’m not South African! Nor English!

Sure, sure 🤫

[voodoo]

@Chris said in All Blacks v France:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France:

@Chris said in All Blacks v France:

@Halfback said in All Blacks v France:

@No-Quarter Its got to be hard to make a decision like that after 75 minutes of running around. I don't envy his role in that respect, brain must be frazzled.

The longer you look at his decision the worse it gets though:

I think it was the 2 previous restarts we fluffed? 1 penalty and I think the other was a knock on? Can't fully remember. I'd prefer to fluff a restart in the lead.

If we had scored, the French would have to score a try to win minimum, surely it would be better to rumble up the field with possession, in the lead by a score, trying to achieve the same thing as if you were 1 point behind.

On that note, not to Barrett bash, I think Savea should be captain. I think Scotts position may be under threat soon. Savea not so much.

Scott Barrett’s position is no way in danger he will stay captain and starting lock.
There is some right BS being spoken about his performances.
Savea is the one who should be gone to the bench at least he has been a highlight reel for some time now.

Circle the wagons cantabs!!!!!

He nailed all his line out takes,Pinched a French throw,made a lot of good carries,was one of the leading tacklers,and was in the engine room of a dominant scrum.
Vai had a very good first half but threw the stupid pass that led to the French wingers try.
Not sure what Barrett was expected to do kick the goals kick for touch.throw into the linouts and catch it at the same time.
Just dribble being written.

Not sure what you’re watching Chris. He looks very pedestrian to me. No dominant tackles, no carries of note, lots of his little “not really close to a charge-down run-throughs” though.

Vai’i on the other hand is far more dominant at line out, far more prominent with ball in hand. Patrick off the bench has also surprised on the upside this year.

I think SB has been put 3rd best lock, and I think Darry and Holland might just push him to #5 best next year.

Lucky he’s a Barrett though I guess, that tends to extend your career by a year or 2 minimum

[Chris]

@voodoo said in All Blacks v France:

@Chris said in All Blacks v France:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France:

@Chris said in All Blacks v France:

@Halfback said in All Blacks v France:

@No-Quarter Its got to be hard to make a decision like that after 75 minutes of running around. I don't envy his role in that respect, brain must be frazzled.

The longer you look at his decision the worse it gets though:

I think it was the 2 previous restarts we fluffed? 1 penalty and I think the other was a knock on? Can't fully remember. I'd prefer to fluff a restart in the lead.

If we had scored, the French would have to score a try to win minimum, surely it would be better to rumble up the field with possession, in the lead by a score, trying to achieve the same thing as if you were 1 point behind.

On that note, not to Barrett bash, I think Savea should be captain. I think Scotts position may be under threat soon. Savea not so much.

Scott Barrett’s position is no way in danger he will stay captain and starting lock.
There is some right BS being spoken about his performances.
Savea is the one who should be gone to the bench at least he has been a highlight reel for some time now.

Circle the wagons cantabs!!!!!

He nailed all his line out takes,Pinched a French throw,made a lot of good carries,was one of the leading tacklers,and was in the engine room of a dominant scrum.
Vai had a very good first half but threw the stupid pass that led to the French wingers try.
Not sure what Barrett was expected to do kick the goals kick for touch.throw into the linouts and catch it at the same time.
Just dribble being written.

Not sure what you’re watching Chris. He looks very pedestrian to me. No dominant tackles, no carries of note, lots of his little “not really close to a charge-down run-throughs” though.

Vai’i on the other hand is far more dominant at line out, far more prominent with ball in hand. Patrick off the bench has also surprised on the upside this year.

I think SB has been put 3rd best lock, and I think Darry and Holland might just push him to #5 best next year.

Lucky he’s a Barrett though I guess, that tends to extend your career by a year or 2 minimum

Well are watching different games then.