All Blacks v France
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@Mauss said in All Blacks v France:
I can’t say I’ve been a fan of Jordan on the wing. Right wings typically have to make do with limited space, so a quick step (NMS), fend (Jane) or deceptive strength in contact (Tele’a) are crucial. Tele’a’s performance against England for me represents what you really want from your 14. Getting the most out of very little.
I’d argue that Jordan possesses none of those typical right wing-traits. When playing on the wing with limited space, he tends to get physically bullied by his opposition winger (I have bad memories of Kolbe manhandling him in the RWC final).
His strengths seem to me to be his ability to scan defences and to produce an acceleration through the gap. While this is less visible and I can’t really provide any evidence of this, he does strike me as a good communicator. At the very least, he is talking a lot throughout games.
So, personally, I’d want him to improve as a fullback (and like many have said here, he has a lot to improve on). If he doesn’t, he probably falls outside of the 23 for me.
Can you find him a Welsh passport please?
I'd let him play anywhere he wants.
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@MiketheSnow I'm not writing him off at all. All I'm saying is that, at the moment, Tele'a is a better 14 and McKenzie is a better 15. I don't think those are particularly unfair calls. If there were more depth at first five, I think McKenzie would've been given more time at fullback.
I also think Jordan is more than capable of stepping up. He just needs to start cutting those errors out of his game.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks v France:
@MiketheSnow I'm not writing him off at all. All I'm saying is that, at the moment, Tele'a is a better 14 and McKenzie is a better 15. I don't think those are particularly unfair calls. If there were more depth at first five, I think McKenzie would've been given more time at fullback.
I also think Jordan is more than capable of stepping up. He just needs to start cutting those errors out of his game.
trouble is we don't have many quality 10s.
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Thought is was our players who ran out of gas around half time. We lost a few turnovers when we put someone through a gap (williams the best example) and left them 10-15m up the field with no one even trying to get there to support. That is attitude mixed with tiredness.
We had almost no variation in our attack all game. 10 never kicked for variation so no stress on the defence. (except BBs daft kick passes)
They knew what was coming every time and we just kept serving it up.Really liked that while we are playing a high risk late passing game there was no panic if someone got tackled and was pushed back 5m or so. The team got back promptly and calmly and started again.
Great game, nothing in it, we are improving all the time, not the finished article but good signs.
Just have to beat Italy ..... dont want to take them lightly. -
@Lancaster-Park can only think the idea is to pull the opposition into a very set defensive rut and then change it up completely when the bench comes on? It's often looked like we're trying to get the opposition to do a lot of metres on defence (standing still and waiting when passed the ball) in order to tire them - but at what cost?
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@voodoo said in All Blacks v France:
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks v France:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France:
@Billy-Tell or South African 😂😂😂 resident Saffas exempted - but my God, some of your fellow countrymen and women have a pathological victim complex going on. Andrew Brace tried to rob the Boks on Saturday rather than the Boks being indisciplined and inviting pressure.
I’m not South African! Nor English!
Sure, sure 🤫
Definitely suspect. No one even accused him of being English before he gracelessly refused @stodders compliment just like … a Pom.
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NZ forwards 7/10, backs 4/10
Poor back selection
Roigard- DMac- Clarke- JB- Ioane- Jordan - BB
Fast wingers, sharp first five, competitive halfback(stays on as long as possible).
The win was there for the taking.
Why change first five after Ireland. -
@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
Huh, I thought Scooter had one of his better games on Saturday. Looked to be getting back to his bustling type play.
I wonder whether the captaincy has taken something out of his game .
It was like last year he took on the role as the physical enforcer , he was our best lock with Brodie and Sam available , and now with the c next to his name he has reigned himself in and doesn’t seem to play near the edge .
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@Lancaster-Park I agree about the lack of variation. Our defensive line out is turning into quite a weapon, I don't know why we don't kick long for touch and challenge the opposition's throw more often for example
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v France:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
Huh, I thought Scooter had one of his better games on Saturday. Looked to be getting back to his bustling type play.
I wonder whether the captaincy has taken something out of his game .
It was like last year he took on the role as the physical enforcer , he was our best lock with Brodie and Sam available , and now with the c next to his name he has reigned himself in and doesn’t seem to play near the edge .
Maybe he's trying to work it out himself. That player is still in there, perhaps he's feeling the responsibility and not wanting to be a card magnet, and overcompensating slightly
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@canefan said in All Blacks v France:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v France:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
Huh, I thought Scooter had one of his better games on Saturday. Looked to be getting back to his bustling type play.
I wonder whether the captaincy has taken something out of his game .
It was like last year he took on the role as the physical enforcer , he was our best lock with Brodie and Sam available , and now with the c next to his name he has reigned himself in and doesn’t seem to play near the edge .
Maybe he's trying to work it out himself. That player is still in there, perhaps he's feeling the responsibility and not wanting to be a card magnet, and overcompensating slightly
That makes a lot of sense. I think he's (understandably) struggling a bit with the captaincy at times and had Vaa'i not stepped up we'd have been in a bit of trouble.
I think he'll be a bit more comfortable in the role next year but competition is def. starting to grow for his spot.
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@Lancaster-Park said in All Blacks v France:
Thought is was our players who ran out of gas around half time
Yeah, have to wonder if that's the case.
Many of these guys have a heavy workload playing in all the games.
Some players out of form (Savea) they've tried to play into form by playing but maybe a bit of fatigue has affected them getting there.
No longer are we the fittest and finish stronger, we also seem off the pace in the overall pace of the game...
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France:
@Mauss said in All Blacks v France:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v France:
They don’t really have a bigger pack to select.
Perhaps bigger is not the right word. Players who thrive more in the tight spaces, something like that? Against France, NZ tried to keep the ball tight and go through the middle in the French 22 but the pick and go was very messy. Cleaners were often unable to keep their feet at the ruck and carriers didn't dominate contact, leading to a lack of forward momentum and French turnover ball.
Ireland’s win against South Africa in Durban came after selecting Beirne at six and playing more directly. They then tried a similar line-up against NZ (without playing as direct) and it didn’t work. I don’t want to simplify things too much, but with how close the top teams are (with Argentina and Australia on the rise), I’d think a horses for courses-approach might be best. In this approach, you’d have something like a "Crusader" gameplan for certain opponents (Ireland, England, Australia, Argentina) while taking on a Cotter/Schmidt/Blues-style for others like South Africa and France. The latter means more aggressive ruck defence, lots of blindside switches in attack, and picking players who excel in the pick and go and are able to dominate contact in close (Tu’ungafasi, Sotutu, Savea, Taukei’aho, Tuipulotu, etc.).
I don’t think it’s particularly likely that Robertson is going to go for something like this, but he can’t keep losing to teams with this playing style without coming onto serious pressure. I also don’t think this is unique to Robertson. Anyone who has been watching NZ U20s rugby for the past 12 years will probably have noticed how much these teams struggle with forward packs who stay tight together and flood the breakdown on attack and defence (some examples: SA 2012, ’14, ’19; FR 2018, ’23, ’24; WL 2012, ’19; IRL 2016; AU 2019, ’23). Those are a lot of coaches – Penney, Boyd, Robertson, Philpott, Laidlaw, Gibbes – who haven’t been able to successfully tackle this issue.
Robertson is a big believer in cohesion so that would go against this sort of mixed approach. I guess we’ll find out in the coming years whether cohesion is enough to overcome this close quarter forward-style.
It's totally philosophical.
If we wanted to play like France we totally could. But we are playing to outflank.
France play like an old school pack. Run hard as fuck, bash the ruck.
Neither is better than the other really. It comes down to if you do what you want AND stop the other team doing what they want.The ABs should watch Isaiah Yeo from Penrith. He's the master of the pass out the back, but if it's not on, he takes 12 metres.
If we can learn to make the pass while actually running we'll be unstoppable
If only we had some big munters who were athletic and had ball skills...
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v France:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France:
@Mauss said in All Blacks v France:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v France:
They don’t really have a bigger pack to select.
Perhaps bigger is not the right word. Players who thrive more in the tight spaces, something like that? Against France, NZ tried to keep the ball tight and go through the middle in the French 22 but the pick and go was very messy. Cleaners were often unable to keep their feet at the ruck and carriers didn't dominate contact, leading to a lack of forward momentum and French turnover ball.
Ireland’s win against South Africa in Durban came after selecting Beirne at six and playing more directly. They then tried a similar line-up against NZ (without playing as direct) and it didn’t work. I don’t want to simplify things too much, but with how close the top teams are (with Argentina and Australia on the rise), I’d think a horses for courses-approach might be best. In this approach, you’d have something like a "Crusader" gameplan for certain opponents (Ireland, England, Australia, Argentina) while taking on a Cotter/Schmidt/Blues-style for others like South Africa and France. The latter means more aggressive ruck defence, lots of blindside switches in attack, and picking players who excel in the pick and go and are able to dominate contact in close (Tu’ungafasi, Sotutu, Savea, Taukei’aho, Tuipulotu, etc.).
I don’t think it’s particularly likely that Robertson is going to go for something like this, but he can’t keep losing to teams with this playing style without coming onto serious pressure. I also don’t think this is unique to Robertson. Anyone who has been watching NZ U20s rugby for the past 12 years will probably have noticed how much these teams struggle with forward packs who stay tight together and flood the breakdown on attack and defence (some examples: SA 2012, ’14, ’19; FR 2018, ’23, ’24; WL 2012, ’19; IRL 2016; AU 2019, ’23). Those are a lot of coaches – Penney, Boyd, Robertson, Philpott, Laidlaw, Gibbes – who haven’t been able to successfully tackle this issue.
Robertson is a big believer in cohesion so that would go against this sort of mixed approach. I guess we’ll find out in the coming years whether cohesion is enough to overcome this close quarter forward-style.
It's totally philosophical.
If we wanted to play like France we totally could. But we are playing to outflank.
France play like an old school pack. Run hard as fuck, bash the ruck.
Neither is better than the other really. It comes down to if you do what you want AND stop the other team doing what they want.The ABs should watch Isaiah Yeo from Penrith. He's the master of the pass out the back, but if it's not on, he takes 12 metres.
If we can learn to make the pass while actually running we'll be unstoppable
If only we had some big munters who were athletic and had ball skills...
We do, or at least did. One is playing in Japan, and before too long I expect one will be playing in the UK
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@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v France:
I'd like to see his assist stats compared to other players. He seems to be a good link player.
Keen as! I'm intrigued what you're watching to think he's a good link player.
I am not as down on Jordan as you appear to be, but I admit to being disappointed in his development and agree with some of your, if not all (I feel dirty), criticisms of his play. I would add that I think we may have already seen the best of him unless he works out a way to become smarter in his decisions, develops a passing game and learns to work to put others in space. His speed is not always going to be a weapon (he doesn't seem as quick this year) and he doesn't have a step on him, so unless he can evolve his game he is going to end up another BB, possibly even a poor man's version.
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@Crazy-Horse he's already about to turn 27. it is far more likely that this is the finished product than he continues to develop.
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Jesus, he is basically at the AB winger used by date.
I’m not sure whether it is Covid or what, but I undercount everyone’s age by two or three years.
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To me, his decision-making is suss in that playstation wants to score in the current movement every time way, and he totally has tunnel vision once he gets the ball - which is a shame because he makes breaks others wouldn't and if he could link we would undoubtedly score more tries.
He's still one of our best attacking weapons, and he gets the ball more at 15 than he does on the wing, and with more ability to insert himself.
If the alternative is BB or Perofeta, then I'm okay with WJ.
Stevenson and Love don't appear to be the full package either really, but wouldn't mind seeing them get some opportunity.
McKenzie would be better, but he's our best 10.
