McKenzie, Mo'unga etc
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@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
The more I think about the Barrett selection the grumpier I get. It now genuinely looks like Robertson's plan for the All Blacks is simply to bide time until his pet Mo'unga comes back. What a fucking dud move. The legacy of the All Blacks, the most successful team of all time, put on hold while some never-was glorified touch player makes some coin offshore.
He has given D Mac 8 starts in a row and he didn't take the chance.Barrett nah not for me but he needs results on this tour he can't really throw a rookie in to a pressure cooker position at First Five v England,Ireland and France.
He gave Barrett chance v Australia it worked out, his hands are tied for this tour.
Mounga looks a better bet than Barrett and Mac with the game they want to play.
I don't see other miracle options atm. -
@reprobate yeah it feels like at this stage Robertson's thinking is his game plan hasn't been successful yet, but it will absolutely work once he gets his maestro Mo'unga back, so he'll use stop-gaps in the meantime until that happens. Going back to Beauden at 10 is just so backwards, and he won't be around for the next RWC like McKenzie will. To add to that, McKenzie has actually been one of our better players this year.
I was a big fan of Razor, one of my most up-voted comments on this forum is ripping into Foster and praising Razor as the bloke that should have been chosen. But ever since the first squad selection I've just become completely disillusioned with him. Right now I don't think he has what it takes to be a successful test coach, and I think in hindsight he would have benefited hugely from spending some time up North working with other players outside of Super and the Canterbury region before taking on the role. I don't think it's coincidence that the two most successful AB coaches in our history by far - Henry and Hanson - had stacks of international experience already before taking over.
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I think Barrett’s selection is intended as a bit of a wake-up call for DMac, who’s had a few lapses in focus this season. I expect he’ll be back in the starting lineup soon, though.
Meanwhile, Reiko seems to get a free pass on selection, despite those same inconsistencies.
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We lost a test series at Home v Ireland the First test v SA in SA in 2022 with Barrett at First five.
Beat SA in SA,England in England ,Ireland in the QF at WC and should have won the WC final v SA if it wasn't for the TMO all with Mounga at first five.
I know who I would rather have at First five going forward. -
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@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris how exactly did it work out? Beauden was totally mediocre against the Wallabies, and as soon as McKenzie came on we started having more opportunities.
No fan of Barrett at first five at all.
But D Mac hardly fills me with confidence we almost lost the First Game v Australia in Australia with D Mac running the ship and did lose to Argentina and twice to SA with D Mac there.
He has blown at least 5 or 6 tries this season with panic last passes and just hasn't been able to control anything.
We are in a rock and a hard place as far as First Fives go atm. -
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We lost a test series at Home v Ireland the First test v SA in SA in 2022 with Barrett at First five.
Beat SA in SA,England in England ,Ireland in the QF at WC and should have won the WC final v SA if it wasn't for the TMO all with Mounga at first five.
I know who I would rather have at First five going forward.That would be Mo'unga with 4 years starting at 10 right?
But you'd discard DMac after 8 tests this year?
I reckon DMac has a higher ceiling at Test level than RM, and I'd have been playing him through this tour. Mo'unga played a few good games in black at the back end of his career, but going into the RWC you wouldn't say he'd taken his chances. Overall win rate of 70% in black remember.
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@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris how exactly did it work out? Beauden was totally mediocre against the Wallabies, and as soon as McKenzie came on we started having more opportunities.
No fan of Barrett at first five at all.
But D Mac hardly fills me with confidence we almost lost the First Game v Australia in Australia with D Mac running the ship and did lose to Argentina and twice to SA with D Mac there.
He has blown at least 5 or 6 tries this season with panic last passes and just hasn't been able to control anything.
We are in a rock and a hard place as far as First Fives go atm.Yeah he still tries too hard, and doesn't have a calm head. All the good stuff he did is offset by headless chook, that is still there. Given free reign he goes totally off reservation, like versus Japan.
BB is not the flash god of old, but still has a bit of calmness about him. I just hope he puts away the stupid kicks!But yeah no one is great, we are in a poor place for tens, and Mo'unga ain't great either.
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Baffling how it’s Canterbury/Crusader fans who see this whole Mounga situation differently. We should NOT be ok with starting BB at 10 until RM returns…
Dmac should have the reigns and lead us through the back end of this season and into next season. If he owns it, perfect. We have our 10 for 2026 and lead us into 2027. If by the EOYT next season Dmac doesn’t own it then we go in with the comfort of knowing Mounga is returning. The issue is, no player comes back from Japan and lights it up, it’s taken Dmac a while to get up to speed. Mounga will be 32 in 2026… if we are relying on that as our solution then we are in trouble.
Give DMac all the time we can, while we can.
Thats just my 2cents
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@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris how exactly did it work out? Beauden was totally mediocre against the Wallabies, and as soon as McKenzie came on we started having more opportunities.
No fan of Barrett at first five at all.
But D Mac hardly fills me with confidence we almost lost the First Game v Australia in Australia with D Mac running the ship and did lose to Argentina and twice to SA with D Mac there.
He has blown at least 5 or 6 tries this season with panic last passes and just hasn't been able to control anything.
We are in a rock and a hard place as far as First Fives go atm.The fact the All Blacks lost/almost lost those games is completely irrelevant to whether McKenzie should be at 10. What's relevant is how he played in those matches.
I don't think anyone could make a strong case how Barrett's start against Australia in the second Test was anywhere near the same quality as McKenzie in those losses.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We lost a test series at Home v Ireland the First test v SA in SA in 2022 with Barrett at First five.
Beat SA in SA,England in England ,Ireland in the QF at WC and should have won the WC final v SA if it wasn't for the TMO all with Mounga at first five.
I know who I would rather have at First five going forward.That would be Mo'unga with 4 years starting at 10 right?
But you'd discard DMac after 8 tests this year?
I reckon DMac has a higher ceiling at Test level than RM, and I'd have been playing him through this tour. Mo'unga played a few good games in black at the back end of his career, but going into the RWC you wouldn't say he'd taken his chances. Overall win rate of 70% in black remember.
No 18 months, Barrett started 2022 as First five Mounga only took over in the second test v SA in SA so no 18 months as NO.1 starting first five.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris how exactly did it work out? Beauden was totally mediocre against the Wallabies, and as soon as McKenzie came on we started having more opportunities.
No fan of Barrett at first five at all.
But D Mac hardly fills me with confidence we almost lost the First Game v Australia in Australia with D Mac running the ship and did lose to Argentina and twice to SA with D Mac there.
He has blown at least 5 or 6 tries this season with panic last passes and just hasn't been able to control anything.
We are in a rock and a hard place as far as First Fives go atm.The fact the All Blacks lost/almost lost those games is completely irrelevant to whether McKenzie should be at 10. What's relevant is how he played in those matches.
I don't think anyone could make a strong case how Barrett's start against Australia in the second Test was anywhere near the same quality as McKenzie in those losses.
Nope D Mac was pretty average all year.
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Baffling how it’s Canterbury/Crusader fans who see this whole Mounga situation differently. We should NOT be ok with starting BB at 10 until RM returns…
Dmac should have the reigns and lead us through the back end of this season and into next season. If he owns it, perfect. We have our 10 for 2026 and lead us into 2027. If by the EOYT next season Dmac doesn’t own it then we go in with the comfort of knowing Mounga is returning. The issue is, no player comes back from Japan and lights it up, it’s taken Dmac a while to get up to speed. Mounga will be 32 in 2026… if we are relying on that as our solution then we are in trouble.
Give DMac all the time we can, while we can.
Thats just my 2cents
D Mac will be 31 hardly an argument
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@Chris you’re picking and choosing here based off your side of the argument.
You’re right in saying Dmac will be 31, the difference and my point is he will have been playing super rugby and playing for the All Blacks in the years leading up.
Hey if RM comes back and it works out that’s awesome and we will all be happy, it’s just not something the All Blacks, of all teams, should be relying on.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris I'd say he's been one of the All Blacks' best behind Codie Taylor, Tupou Vaa'i, Wallace Sititi and Cortez Ratima. Maybe Tyrel Lomax too.
Then you are watching different games than I am just do not agree with that.
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris you’re picking and choosing here based off your side of the argument.
You’re right in saying Dmac will be 31, the difference and my point is he will have been playing super rugby and playing for the All Blacks in the years leading up.
Hey if RM comes back and it works out that’s awesome and we will all be happy, it’s just not something the All Blacks, of all teams, should be relying on.
I think it is a major problem we have at First five.
Barrett no,D Mac has not done the job.
Mounga back great another option we need it.
ATM we have a major weakness the more options the better.
I hope Plummer and Jacomb can come on and be options. -
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris I'd say he's been one of the All Blacks' best behind Codie Taylor, Tupou Vaa'i, Wallace Sititi and Cortez Ratima. Maybe Tyrel Lomax too.
Then you are watching different games than I am just do not agree with that.
I see that with main stream media often - they praise players I think struggled ... but it is what it is.
Mo'unga was at best a serviceable test 10. A tier below most of our recent 10s. Oustanding Super player, but his game didn't transfer well to Test level
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@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris I'd say he's been one of the All Blacks' best behind Codie Taylor, Tupou Vaa'i, Wallace Sititi and Cortez Ratima. Maybe Tyrel Lomax too.
Then you are watching different games than I am just do not agree with that.
I see that with main stream media often - they praise players I think struggled ... but it is what it is.
Mo'unga was at best a serviceable test 10. A tier below most of our recent 10s. Oustanding Super player, but his game didn't transfer well to Test level
Another option no matter how people rate him
As I said we need options.
