McKenzie, Mo'unga etc
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@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris how exactly did it work out? Beauden was totally mediocre against the Wallabies, and as soon as McKenzie came on we started having more opportunities.
No fan of Barrett at first five at all.
But D Mac hardly fills me with confidence we almost lost the First Game v Australia in Australia with D Mac running the ship and did lose to Argentina and twice to SA with D Mac there.
He has blown at least 5 or 6 tries this season with panic last passes and just hasn't been able to control anything.
We are in a rock and a hard place as far as First Fives go atm. -
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We lost a test series at Home v Ireland the First test v SA in SA in 2022 with Barrett at First five.
Beat SA in SA,England in England ,Ireland in the QF at WC and should have won the WC final v SA if it wasn't for the TMO all with Mounga at first five.
I know who I would rather have at First five going forward.That would be Mo'unga with 4 years starting at 10 right?
But you'd discard DMac after 8 tests this year?
I reckon DMac has a higher ceiling at Test level than RM, and I'd have been playing him through this tour. Mo'unga played a few good games in black at the back end of his career, but going into the RWC you wouldn't say he'd taken his chances. Overall win rate of 70% in black remember.
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@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris how exactly did it work out? Beauden was totally mediocre against the Wallabies, and as soon as McKenzie came on we started having more opportunities.
No fan of Barrett at first five at all.
But D Mac hardly fills me with confidence we almost lost the First Game v Australia in Australia with D Mac running the ship and did lose to Argentina and twice to SA with D Mac there.
He has blown at least 5 or 6 tries this season with panic last passes and just hasn't been able to control anything.
We are in a rock and a hard place as far as First Fives go atm.Yeah he still tries too hard, and doesn't have a calm head. All the good stuff he did is offset by headless chook, that is still there. Given free reign he goes totally off reservation, like versus Japan.
BB is not the flash god of old, but still has a bit of calmness about him. I just hope he puts away the stupid kicks!But yeah no one is great, we are in a poor place for tens, and Mo'unga ain't great either.
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Baffling how it’s Canterbury/Crusader fans who see this whole Mounga situation differently. We should NOT be ok with starting BB at 10 until RM returns…
Dmac should have the reigns and lead us through the back end of this season and into next season. If he owns it, perfect. We have our 10 for 2026 and lead us into 2027. If by the EOYT next season Dmac doesn’t own it then we go in with the comfort of knowing Mounga is returning. The issue is, no player comes back from Japan and lights it up, it’s taken Dmac a while to get up to speed. Mounga will be 32 in 2026… if we are relying on that as our solution then we are in trouble.
Give DMac all the time we can, while we can.
Thats just my 2cents
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@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris how exactly did it work out? Beauden was totally mediocre against the Wallabies, and as soon as McKenzie came on we started having more opportunities.
No fan of Barrett at first five at all.
But D Mac hardly fills me with confidence we almost lost the First Game v Australia in Australia with D Mac running the ship and did lose to Argentina and twice to SA with D Mac there.
He has blown at least 5 or 6 tries this season with panic last passes and just hasn't been able to control anything.
We are in a rock and a hard place as far as First Fives go atm.The fact the All Blacks lost/almost lost those games is completely irrelevant to whether McKenzie should be at 10. What's relevant is how he played in those matches.
I don't think anyone could make a strong case how Barrett's start against Australia in the second Test was anywhere near the same quality as McKenzie in those losses.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We lost a test series at Home v Ireland the First test v SA in SA in 2022 with Barrett at First five.
Beat SA in SA,England in England ,Ireland in the QF at WC and should have won the WC final v SA if it wasn't for the TMO all with Mounga at first five.
I know who I would rather have at First five going forward.That would be Mo'unga with 4 years starting at 10 right?
But you'd discard DMac after 8 tests this year?
I reckon DMac has a higher ceiling at Test level than RM, and I'd have been playing him through this tour. Mo'unga played a few good games in black at the back end of his career, but going into the RWC you wouldn't say he'd taken his chances. Overall win rate of 70% in black remember.
No 18 months, Barrett started 2022 as First five Mounga only took over in the second test v SA in SA so no 18 months as NO.1 starting first five.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris how exactly did it work out? Beauden was totally mediocre against the Wallabies, and as soon as McKenzie came on we started having more opportunities.
No fan of Barrett at first five at all.
But D Mac hardly fills me with confidence we almost lost the First Game v Australia in Australia with D Mac running the ship and did lose to Argentina and twice to SA with D Mac there.
He has blown at least 5 or 6 tries this season with panic last passes and just hasn't been able to control anything.
We are in a rock and a hard place as far as First Fives go atm.The fact the All Blacks lost/almost lost those games is completely irrelevant to whether McKenzie should be at 10. What's relevant is how he played in those matches.
I don't think anyone could make a strong case how Barrett's start against Australia in the second Test was anywhere near the same quality as McKenzie in those losses.
Nope D Mac was pretty average all year.
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Baffling how it’s Canterbury/Crusader fans who see this whole Mounga situation differently. We should NOT be ok with starting BB at 10 until RM returns…
Dmac should have the reigns and lead us through the back end of this season and into next season. If he owns it, perfect. We have our 10 for 2026 and lead us into 2027. If by the EOYT next season Dmac doesn’t own it then we go in with the comfort of knowing Mounga is returning. The issue is, no player comes back from Japan and lights it up, it’s taken Dmac a while to get up to speed. Mounga will be 32 in 2026… if we are relying on that as our solution then we are in trouble.
Give DMac all the time we can, while we can.
Thats just my 2cents
D Mac will be 31 hardly an argument
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@Chris you’re picking and choosing here based off your side of the argument.
You’re right in saying Dmac will be 31, the difference and my point is he will have been playing super rugby and playing for the All Blacks in the years leading up.
Hey if RM comes back and it works out that’s awesome and we will all be happy, it’s just not something the All Blacks, of all teams, should be relying on.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris I'd say he's been one of the All Blacks' best behind Codie Taylor, Tupou Vaa'i, Wallace Sititi and Cortez Ratima. Maybe Tyrel Lomax too.
Then you are watching different games than I am just do not agree with that.
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris you’re picking and choosing here based off your side of the argument.
You’re right in saying Dmac will be 31, the difference and my point is he will have been playing super rugby and playing for the All Blacks in the years leading up.
Hey if RM comes back and it works out that’s awesome and we will all be happy, it’s just not something the All Blacks, of all teams, should be relying on.
I think it is a major problem we have at First five.
Barrett no,D Mac has not done the job.
Mounga back great another option we need it.
ATM we have a major weakness the more options the better.
I hope Plummer and Jacomb can come on and be options. -
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris I'd say he's been one of the All Blacks' best behind Codie Taylor, Tupou Vaa'i, Wallace Sititi and Cortez Ratima. Maybe Tyrel Lomax too.
Then you are watching different games than I am just do not agree with that.
I see that with main stream media often - they praise players I think struggled ... but it is what it is.
Mo'unga was at best a serviceable test 10. A tier below most of our recent 10s. Oustanding Super player, but his game didn't transfer well to Test level
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@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris I'd say he's been one of the All Blacks' best behind Codie Taylor, Tupou Vaa'i, Wallace Sititi and Cortez Ratima. Maybe Tyrel Lomax too.
Then you are watching different games than I am just do not agree with that.
I see that with main stream media often - they praise players I think struggled ... but it is what it is.
Mo'unga was at best a serviceable test 10. A tier below most of our recent 10s. Oustanding Super player, but his game didn't transfer well to Test level
Another option no matter how people rate him
As I said we need options. -
@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I hope Plummer and Jacomb can come on and be options.
good thing Plummer's been tried in test matches then, so you can see if he steps up or not then /sarc
They can’t really try him on this tour he could get ruined against these teams.
The problem with that being D Mac started against Fiji and Japan to try to give him time to bed in.
So no one else really got a chance as they were giving D Mac all the chances. -
@nzzp said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris I'd say he's been one of the All Blacks' best behind Codie Taylor, Tupou Vaa'i, Wallace Sititi and Cortez Ratima. Maybe Tyrel Lomax too.
Then you are watching different games than I am just do not agree with that.
I see that with main stream media often - they praise players I think struggled ... but it is what it is.
Mo'unga was at best a serviceable test 10. A tier below most of our recent 10s. Oustanding Super player, but his game didn't transfer well to Test level
Like D Mac then in your opinion.
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@Machpants said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Chris how exactly did it work out? Beauden was totally mediocre against the Wallabies, and as soon as McKenzie came on we started having more opportunities.
No fan of Barrett at first five at all.
But D Mac hardly fills me with confidence we almost lost the First Game v Australia in Australia with D Mac running the ship and did lose to Argentina and twice to SA with D Mac there.
He has blown at least 5 or 6 tries this season with panic last passes and just hasn't been able to control anything.
We are in a rock and a hard place as far as First Fives go atm.Yeah he still tries too hard, and doesn't have a calm head. All the good stuff he did is offset by headless chook, that is still there. Given free reign he goes totally off reservation, like versus Japan.
BB is not the flash god of old, but still has a bit of calmness about him. I just hope he puts away the stupid kicks!But yeah no one is great, we are in a poor place for tens, and Mo'unga ain't great either.
100% incorrect conclusion for me. What happens when you give McKenzie free reign and he knows he is first choice is good play, with structure, as per the Chiefs - and a guy with the confidence to throw attacking passes when they're on.
The Japan game is what you get when you tell McKenzie that a mediocre past-it Beauden Barrett is being preferred to him for the England game - loose as, trying to score a try with every play.
Beauden Barret used to be an amazing athlete, and a really good fullback. He has always been a dogshit first 5, and now with less pace, he's worse than that. He may look calm, but he's looking like that while doing headless chook stuff like defensive bombs, kicking the ball out on the full, chip-kicking the ball away when we need to retain possession etc etc. I guess he's winning on that crucial body language metric. -
@pakman said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Hard to see DMac as a closer in baseball parlance. But undeniably went well against Bok rush, which we haven’t handled well historically.
So, they've picked him on the bench i.e. as a closer... and not picked him to start, to beat the rush defence. Selectorial genius.
