All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham
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@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I know there’s a lot of criticism on this forum towards the incessant turn to kicking by Barrett in this game, but, rewatching the game, I’d argue that the kick-option was the right choice a lot of the time, but it was Barrett’s mixed execution of his kicks which led to mixed outcomes. Charlie Morgan of The Telegraph already highlighted this example around the first minute of the game. Barrett, following an over the top lineout win by Savea, receives the pass around the halfway line and puts up a great wipers kick. The kick is regathered by Telea, who offloads to Ioane, leading to a linebreak and the England defence in disarray. Several Abs have realigned to the openside and this is the picture:
Caleb Clarke, who is out of frame here, is the target for the cross kick. Taylor and Savea are on his inside with only George Furbank covering the English backfield (Marcus Smith is all the way on the opposite side, with 14 English players being bunched up within 20 metres from each other).
What saves England is Itoje’s chargedown of Barrett’s kick, with Barrett probably needing to be just a little bit further back in order to avoid the oncoming rush defence.
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
It is nice to have some actual rugby talked. I'm late to the party, but am definitely a critic of kicking the ball away. That first pic is a clear overlap, and I reckon kicking it away is criminal. As per others, McKenzie makes the wide pass and we either score or are hot on attack still with possession. The solution is not Barrett standing deeper and being more telegraphed in kicking away attacking possession, it's having a passer at first receiver.
The 2nd pic, we are hot on attack on their 22. The best option isn't kicking the ball away, it's keeping ball in hand and attacking - save the 'might score in a single phase but more likely will lose possession' kick for when you have a penalty advantage. The grubber didn't work because as they often do, it hit something. A chip may well have been marked - they often are. And that freeze frame I think would look pretty damn similar to one in the 75th minute just prior to the game tying try, with McKenzie instead of Barrett and Jordan instead of Ioane - if anything there are less defenders here - and that's without considering the space on the open.Look at how we scored our tries: Sititi offloads to Telea. Jordan runs a great line off a Barrett switch. The disallowed one for the deliberate knock-on, passing beating the man. McKenzie hitting Jordan on his outside shoulder freeing Telea up just enough. By contrast, most of our 'clever' kicks simply turned over possession. You can of course argue that with better implementation that wouldn't be the case - but I reckon we've seen more than enough to know that these are not high-percentage plays for us.
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@Smuts said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate haven’t forensically looked at the off the ball shots from Sat like you and @booboo
but in real time they looked like a continuation of a tactic you were using during the RC.
Takes out the cleaners (sacrificing someone who likely isn’t going get to/be effective in the breakdown) and gives your jacklers an easier shot at the ball. Earned you a few holding penalties against us.
The Irish were also doing it in our series. So wouldn’t be surprised if this came up as something the officials needed to focus on.
Hardly forensic, but to my mind two of the incidents were effectively guys just standing their ground.
Whoever suggested it is like a charging foul in BB was pretty much bang on.
Defenders should not be required to get out of the road.
And whilst I agree about how the "tackle" takes out cleaners, demanding free passage for them creates an unfair advantage as they are a runner with a mandated gap, as well as a potential ruck winner.
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Not sure if posted yet: https://x.com/derekalberts1/status/1852997703271137744
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Though I would argue that hands will beat them on that first fucking frame.
One wide pass and they are fucked, we're behind them with numbers. The kick pass adds too many variables
first thing that struck me too, just flash it wide, we had them out numbered.
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I agree, pass it left, but wait, does Cane need to touch it? Then it slows down. He can do little inside passes but he'd be a brake in that situation.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I know there’s a lot of criticism on this forum towards the incessant turn to kicking by Barrett in this game, but, rewatching the game, I’d argue that the kick-option was the right choice a lot of the time, but it was Barrett’s mixed execution of his kicks which led to mixed outcomes. Charlie Morgan of The Telegraph already highlighted this example around the first minute of the game. Barrett, following an over the top lineout win by Savea, receives the pass around the halfway line and puts up a great wipers kick. The kick is regathered by Telea, who offloads to Ioane, leading to a linebreak and the England defence in disarray. Several Abs have realigned to the openside and this is the picture:
Caleb Clarke, who is out of frame here, is the target for the cross kick. Taylor and Savea are on his inside with only George Furbank covering the English backfield (Marcus Smith is all the way on the opposite side, with 14 English players being bunched up within 20 metres from each other).
What saves England is Itoje’s chargedown of Barrett’s kick, with Barrett probably needing to be just a little bit further back in order to avoid the oncoming rush defence.
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
It is nice to have some actual rugby talked. I'm late to the party, but am definitely a critic of kicking the ball away. That first pic is a clear overlap, and I reckon kicking it away is criminal. As per others, McKenzie makes the wide pass and we either score or are hot on attack still with possession. The solution is not Barrett standing deeper and being more telegraphed in kicking away attacking possession, it's having a passer at first receiver.
A long pass isn't that much higher percentage play than the kick pass, and has it's own risks - so much harder to run onto with correct timing, risk of throwing behind the ballcarrier slowing momentum, risk of arcing it too high leading to defense arriving at the same time as the ball - all momentum and territory killers. Not much chance of an intercept in this scenario, granted.
The kick pass, executed correctly, gives the same result as the long pass but with an extra 10-20m of field position, with time to adjust the pace of the receiver onto the ball to maximise territory gain. The risks are pretty evident, but teams nowadays are quite happy defending that deep in enemy territory - the most likely result of turning the ball over is an exit kick leading to a set piece (good attacking option) at or beyond halfway.
The 2nd pic, we are hot on attack on their 22. The best option isn't kicking the ball away, it's keeping ball in hand and attacking - save the 'might score in a single phase but more likely will lose possession' kick for when you have a penalty advantage. The grubber didn't work because as they often do, it hit something. A chip may well have been marked - they often are. And that freeze frame I think would look pretty damn similar to one in the 75th minute just prior to the game tying try, with McKenzie instead of Barrett and Jordan instead of Ioane - if anything there are less defenders here - and that's without considering the space on the open.
Here's your freeze frame, since you couldn't be bothered to find it yourself: 7-10m closer to the line, 2.5 support runners instead of 4, 3.5 defenders instead of 4.5 - very different picture. McKenzie shapes to kick, the defense turns as they're expecting the kick (because of varied tactics earlier?), and then have to readjust to the pass - excellent vision by McKenzie but Jordan and Telea did incredibly well after that.
I agree grubber was the wrong option, a chip would've been a higher percentage play, but kick was certainly the play.
Look at how we scored our tries: Sititi offloads to Telea. Jordan runs a great line off a Barrett switch. The disallowed one for the deliberate knock-on, passing beating the man. McKenzie hitting Jordan on his outside shoulder freeing Telea up just enough. By contrast, most of our 'clever' kicks simply turned over possession. You can of course argue that with better implementation that wouldn't be the case - but I reckon we've seen more than enough to know that these are not high-percentage plays for us.
Skill improvement needed yes. Tactically sound decisions though, also yes.
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@delicatessen I think the risks of turning the ball over are much lower, and if you can't trust an AB 10 to make an accurate long pass, then who can you trust? There are times when it's the best option, but I don't think that was one of them.
Re the 2nd pic, thanks for the comparison. It was very good by McKenzie, shaping to kick turned the winger in, then the pass to Jordan's outside shoulder was right on the money. I don't find the pictures very different to be honest - If Barrett had run, and Ioane slid slightly outside, you have Telea 1 on 1 as per the try. I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I think the context matters here too: we're losing at this point in the game, we're hot on attack off turnover ball and the previous ruck we had good momentum from Tuipolotu. To me, kicking that ball away is just crazy / a total lack of patience. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@delicatessen I think the risks of turning the ball over are much lower, and if you can't trust an AB 10 to make an accurate long pass, then who can you trust? There are times when it's the best option, but I don't think that was one of them.
If you can't trust an AB 10 to make an accurate kick pass, then who can you trust?
I love a good long ball as much as the next guy, but there can never be only one right option in a given situation. Either could've worked well, I think the kick slightly more so.
Re the 2nd pic, thanks for the comparison. It was very good by McKenzie, shaping to kick turned the winger in, then the pass to Jordan's outside shoulder was right on the money. I don't find the pictures very different to be honest - If Barrett had run, and Ioane slid slightly outside, you have Telea 1 on 1 as per the try. I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I think the context matters here too: we're losing at this point in the game, we're hot on attack off turnover ball and the previous ruck we had good momentum from Tuipolotu. To me, kicking that ball away is just crazy / a total lack of patience.No problem (there were in fact many problems).
Main difference is space behind the line - next to none for McKenzie to kick into.
Re your other points
- yes we may have scored with a pass, or may have lost ground, or any number of other options
- agree it looks premeditated - anything wrong with that in itself?
- context matters i agree
- half an hour to go in the match, so not time to panic and hold the ball forever yet. still a good time to show their rush defense a few kicks to slow them in future - directly helped McKenzie I think
- no better time to kick than off turnover ball, opposition out of position so tougher to cover
Edit: confused myself at a crucial point in proceedings. First time for everything. Fixed now.
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@delicatessen Kicking off turnover possession can be a great option of course, and so can running.
We'd had one phase since the turnover, so I don't think I'm quite advocating for holding the ball forever. Building some pressure has merit - you keep the ball in attacking areas and more often than not you get players offside - particularly when you have guys like Sititi, Aumua, Tuipolotu making metres.
Re premeditation, yeah there can be problems with that. How you attack should be based on what the opposition are doing / have done, not what you've decided in advance they might be likely to do. I think that's exactly what McKenzie has done: they're playing a rush, so he's aware that the kick is an option, the winger turned in, and so he passed. It's picking the time for the kick that is the tricky bit, and for me we are trying it way too often - and there's context for that too in Barrett's other kicks - the one that went dead wasn't pretty. -
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@reprobate we're a bit closer to consensus I think.
Have options, that comes from showing that we're willing to use any option, but don't lets criticize kicking for it's own sake.
And be better at kicking. Big gains if we could do that.
Oh and also don't kick if we're losing and it's within 4 minutes of full-time. Ever. Do not do this. Unforgiveable. Punishable by death via cheese grater.
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@delicatessen yeah agree with all of that, I just don't want to see us kicking for kicking's sake - only if it's really the best option. There are plenty of times in games where we don't have turnover ball on the 22, or an overlap - if there's nothing on and we aren't making metres then something contestable / creating a mess can be good. And there are some clear situations where a kick pass is the only way the winger is getting the ball and/or they are unmarked.
I'd add "be better at chasing" - which to be fair does appear to be happening somewhat at least. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Also not related to the kicking, but on-field decisions: the tap we took instead of a scrum - that was a penalty rather than a free kick - for Itoje off his feet. Pretty poor decision after winning scrum penalties.
All our poor decisions may be related to a newish group who are trying to find their way (although with a bunch of the old leadership group still there, you wonder why they can't expedite the learning process). We appear to be trying to force the play much of the time, or get undone with poor decisions or simply poor execution. And yet I thought the group that closed the test played a closer brand of percentage rugby to that which I want to see. We are making progress in baby steps, hopefully sometime this tour we can put all the pieces together and open up a can of whoopass on someone. Preferably before we get to Italy
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@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I do think this is a good point, same as what you say about a lack of patience. Personally I also think attacking kicks are better as part of a pre-meditated move rather than off counter-attack, as was the case here, as you need to catch the defence off guard in order to actually get a kick through.
But it's also still the case that you're up against a really well-organized defence outside of their 22. I can't imagine the English defence breaking down by Barrett having a carry and Ioane running an arc in this scenario. The defence is constantly thinking on its feet as well: they are looking for ways to isolate the Kiwi attackers and pressuring the breakdown, and all of the best cleaners are on the other side of the ruck.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I do think this is a good point, same as what you say about a lack of patience. Personally I also think attacking kicks are better as part of a pre-meditated move rather than off counter-attack, as was the case here, as you need to catch the defence off guard in order to actually get a kick through.
But it's also still the case that you're up against a really well-organized defence outside of their 22. I can't imagine the English defence breaking down by Barrett having a carry and Ioane running an arc in this scenario. The defence is constantly thinking on its feet as well: they are looking for ways to isolate the Kiwi attackers and pressuring the breakdown, and all of the best cleaners are on the other side of the ruck.
Tele'a didn't seem to respect English defence that much...
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@nostrildamus That's fair. "Give the ball to Mark" seemed to have been as good a strategy as any.
