All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham
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@delicatessen I think the risks of turning the ball over are much lower, and if you can't trust an AB 10 to make an accurate long pass, then who can you trust? There are times when it's the best option, but I don't think that was one of them.
Re the 2nd pic, thanks for the comparison. It was very good by McKenzie, shaping to kick turned the winger in, then the pass to Jordan's outside shoulder was right on the money. I don't find the pictures very different to be honest - If Barrett had run, and Ioane slid slightly outside, you have Telea 1 on 1 as per the try. I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I think the context matters here too: we're losing at this point in the game, we're hot on attack off turnover ball and the previous ruck we had good momentum from Tuipolotu. To me, kicking that ball away is just crazy / a total lack of patience. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@delicatessen I think the risks of turning the ball over are much lower, and if you can't trust an AB 10 to make an accurate long pass, then who can you trust? There are times when it's the best option, but I don't think that was one of them.
If you can't trust an AB 10 to make an accurate kick pass, then who can you trust?
I love a good long ball as much as the next guy, but there can never be only one right option in a given situation. Either could've worked well, I think the kick slightly more so.
Re the 2nd pic, thanks for the comparison. It was very good by McKenzie, shaping to kick turned the winger in, then the pass to Jordan's outside shoulder was right on the money. I don't find the pictures very different to be honest - If Barrett had run, and Ioane slid slightly outside, you have Telea 1 on 1 as per the try. I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I think the context matters here too: we're losing at this point in the game, we're hot on attack off turnover ball and the previous ruck we had good momentum from Tuipolotu. To me, kicking that ball away is just crazy / a total lack of patience.No problem (there were in fact many problems).
Main difference is space behind the line - next to none for McKenzie to kick into.
Re your other points
- yes we may have scored with a pass, or may have lost ground, or any number of other options
- agree it looks premeditated - anything wrong with that in itself?
- context matters i agree
- half an hour to go in the match, so not time to panic and hold the ball forever yet. still a good time to show their rush defense a few kicks to slow them in future - directly helped McKenzie I think
- no better time to kick than off turnover ball, opposition out of position so tougher to cover
Edit: confused myself at a crucial point in proceedings. First time for everything. Fixed now.
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@delicatessen Kicking off turnover possession can be a great option of course, and so can running.
We'd had one phase since the turnover, so I don't think I'm quite advocating for holding the ball forever. Building some pressure has merit - you keep the ball in attacking areas and more often than not you get players offside - particularly when you have guys like Sititi, Aumua, Tuipolotu making metres.
Re premeditation, yeah there can be problems with that. How you attack should be based on what the opposition are doing / have done, not what you've decided in advance they might be likely to do. I think that's exactly what McKenzie has done: they're playing a rush, so he's aware that the kick is an option, the winger turned in, and so he passed. It's picking the time for the kick that is the tricky bit, and for me we are trying it way too often - and there's context for that too in Barrett's other kicks - the one that went dead wasn't pretty. -
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@reprobate we're a bit closer to consensus I think.
Have options, that comes from showing that we're willing to use any option, but don't lets criticize kicking for it's own sake.
And be better at kicking. Big gains if we could do that.
Oh and also don't kick if we're losing and it's within 4 minutes of full-time. Ever. Do not do this. Unforgiveable. Punishable by death via cheese grater.
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@delicatessen yeah agree with all of that, I just don't want to see us kicking for kicking's sake - only if it's really the best option. There are plenty of times in games where we don't have turnover ball on the 22, or an overlap - if there's nothing on and we aren't making metres then something contestable / creating a mess can be good. And there are some clear situations where a kick pass is the only way the winger is getting the ball and/or they are unmarked.
I'd add "be better at chasing" - which to be fair does appear to be happening somewhat at least. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Also not related to the kicking, but on-field decisions: the tap we took instead of a scrum - that was a penalty rather than a free kick - for Itoje off his feet. Pretty poor decision after winning scrum penalties.
All our poor decisions may be related to a newish group who are trying to find their way (although with a bunch of the old leadership group still there, you wonder why they can't expedite the learning process). We appear to be trying to force the play much of the time, or get undone with poor decisions or simply poor execution. And yet I thought the group that closed the test played a closer brand of percentage rugby to that which I want to see. We are making progress in baby steps, hopefully sometime this tour we can put all the pieces together and open up a can of whoopass on someone. Preferably before we get to Italy
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@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I do think this is a good point, same as what you say about a lack of patience. Personally I also think attacking kicks are better as part of a pre-meditated move rather than off counter-attack, as was the case here, as you need to catch the defence off guard in order to actually get a kick through.
But it's also still the case that you're up against a really well-organized defence outside of their 22. I can't imagine the English defence breaking down by Barrett having a carry and Ioane running an arc in this scenario. The defence is constantly thinking on its feet as well: they are looking for ways to isolate the Kiwi attackers and pressuring the breakdown, and all of the best cleaners are on the other side of the ruck.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I do think this is a good point, same as what you say about a lack of patience. Personally I also think attacking kicks are better as part of a pre-meditated move rather than off counter-attack, as was the case here, as you need to catch the defence off guard in order to actually get a kick through.
But it's also still the case that you're up against a really well-organized defence outside of their 22. I can't imagine the English defence breaking down by Barrett having a carry and Ioane running an arc in this scenario. The defence is constantly thinking on its feet as well: they are looking for ways to isolate the Kiwi attackers and pressuring the breakdown, and all of the best cleaners are on the other side of the ruck.
Tele'a didn't seem to respect English defence that much...
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@nostrildamus That's fair. "Give the ball to Mark" seemed to have been as good a strategy as any.
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Not just the ABs
I find it fascinating that teams will elect to put in a box kick down the short side from a scrum and/or ruck when on their own 40
A good execution may take you to the opposition’s 30-22m where invariably they will gather and either kick straight back or run it back
Alternatively a pass into midfield could see the 10, 12, 13 going for a 50-22
A far higher % of success IMHO
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@Mauss Yeah look it's not like it's a chance gone begging or anything, but it is a good attacking position (on both sides), on the 2nd phase after a turnover, with us behind on the scoreboard - spend some time there ball in hand, get a penalty I'd be happy with.
I felt the English were good but not great defensively, we were making metres and scoring tries, and they were not making heaps of turnovers - not good enough in my eyes to justify kicking that sort of ball away. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
spend some time there ball in hand
To be honest, that's pretty much exactly what Jason Holland said during the halftime interview - "We'll look to make England make some tackles when we got the ball" - so Barrett might have gone a bit off script at times.
I still think the kick-option was on in the second example. Gardner wasn't penalizing English transgressions so maybe Barrett felt they needed to score quickly off turnover ball. The real bad decision was his kick around halfway when it went dead: it was poor execution but also just not the right time for it.
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Are the All Blacks doomed to a 70% flatline?
Having been spoiled by the giants of the past, New Zealand have been caught up by the rest of the world.
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Looooool was that written by Razor's personal PR arm?
What a ridiculous fucking "article"
