All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham
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My problem with the kick pass there is yes, you outflank the defenders, but
Far more often than not, no matter the player, the hang time and the inaccuracy means it rarely hits the winger on the run. They normally need to stop to catch and lots of timing goes out the window.
They looks awesome when they come off, but I have seen for too many blown to think they are always the best option.
I also tend to think running it there gives.you less chance of a turnover if it doesn't go 100% right. -
But hey, this a refreshing change in chat TBH
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@mariner4life Fully agree that it isn't always the best option. At Ellis Park, they moved the Springbok defence around through those kinds of miss passes, to good effect. The execution that was lacking there was mostly around the breakdown.
Ultimately, I think both options can work. If I'm very generous to Scott Hansen and his attack, I'd say that they are building up their repertoire of attack. Looking at the Crusaders over the Scott Robertson years, they would often play very different according to the opponent. If this coaching team is able to make it credible that the All Blacks can attack in a number of different ways, then it becomes much harder to prepare a defence.
But again, this is a best case scenario. It's just as possible that they have very little idea of what they're actually trying to achieve.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
If I'm very generous to Scott Hansen and his attack, I'd say that they are building up their repertoire of attack.
I am hopeful but so far disappointed.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
The correct call in your second example was to go the other way - open - there’s already a 6 on 5 mismatch in favour of the ABs and plenty of turf
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@MiketheSnow The question would then become how do you get the ball there quicker than the English defenders? Barrett would had to have signalled the switch before the Tuipulotu carry, and there's every chance that the English defence reacts to that.
Or you'd have to be talking about a reverse wipers kick by Barrett there, which I don't think anyone would think is a good idea, unless you're Tony Brown coaching an NPC side.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@MiketheSnow The question would then become how do you get the ball there quicker than the English defenders? Barrett would had to have signalled the switch before the Tuipulotu carry, and there's every chance that the English defence reacts to that.
Or you'd have to be talking about a reverse wipers kick by Barrett there, which I don't think anyone would think is a good idea, unless you're Tony Brown coaching an NPC side.
Gone open from the start, from the base of the ruck.
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@MiketheSnow That's asking a whole lot of the forwards who are positioned there. All of the potential playmakers - both Barretts and Will Jordan - are on the right hand side. On the left you have Savea, Cane, Lomax, Williams, Sititi and Clarke. They're also in no discernable shape to execute the overlap.
Kiwi forwards are skilled but if you're expecting them to pull off a backline move on their own, then I think you may be expecting a bit too much from them.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@MiketheSnow That's asking a whole lot of the forwards who are positioned there. All of the potential playmakers - both Barretts and Will Jordan - are on the right hand side. On the left you have Savea, Cane, Lomax, Williams, Sititi and Clarke. They're also in no discernable shape to execute the overlap.
Kiwi forwards are skilled but if you're expecting them to pull off a backline move on their own, then I think you may be expecting a bit too much from them.
When you have either of or both Savea and Sititi running into space that will attract more than one defender
And you have Clarke to run it in if he's given space and time
Demonstrably better than the choice they made IMHO
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@MiketheSnow We'll have to agree to disagree, Mike!
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@reprobate haven’t forensically looked at the off the ball shots from Sat like you and @booboo
but in real time they looked like a continuation of a tactic you were using during the RC.
Takes out the cleaners (sacrificing someone who likely isn’t going get to/be effective in the breakdown) and gives your jacklers an easier shot at the ball. Earned you a few holding penalties against us.
The Irish were also doing it in our series. So wouldn’t be surprised if this came up as something the officials needed to focus on.
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@MiketheSnow That's asking a whole lot of the forwards who are positioned there. All of the potential playmakers - both Barretts and Will Jordan - are on the right hand side. On the left you have Savea, Cane, Lomax, Williams, Sititi and Clarke. They're also in no discernable shape to execute the overlap.
Kiwi forwards are skilled but if you're expecting them to pull off a backline move on their own, then I think you may be expecting a bit too much from them.
When you have either of or both Savea and Sititi running into space that will attract more than one defender
And you have Clarke to run it in if he's given space and time
Demonstrably better than the choice they made IMHO
Still need someone to take the pass and redistribute each time - the first five players are Ardie, Cane, Lomax, Williams and Sititi.
No way every one of them is going to be in position to do so at the speed required.
Plus they'll all want (correctly) to be available to clean out should the picture change/move break down at any point.
Not happening Mike.
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
The correct call in your second example was to go the other way - open - there’s already a 6 on 5 mismatch in favour of the ABs and plenty of turf
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
The correct call in your second example was to go the other way - open - there’s already a 6 on 5 mismatch in favour of the ABs and plenty of turf
If that chip gets through, Tele'a scores in the corner...
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@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Just saw the ABs IV game. How good is that jersey??? Much better than the ABs.
Do you have a ling please ?
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@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
The correct call in your second example was to go the other way - open - there’s already a 6 on 5 mismatch in favour of the ABs and plenty of turf
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
The correct call in your second example was to go the other way - open - there’s already a 6 on 5 mismatch in favour of the ABs and plenty of turf
If that chip gets through, Tele'a scores in the corner...
Maybe so but is it the percentage option? If ball in hand will also likely result in the same outcome but has a greater chance of success.....
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@cgrant said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Just saw the ABs IV game. How good is that jersey??? Much better than the ABs.
Do you have a ling please ?
My AI is not working well. Please read "Link", of course.
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@Catogrande said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
The correct call in your second example was to go the other way - open - there’s already a 6 on 5 mismatch in favour of the ABs and plenty of turf
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
The correct call in your second example was to go the other way - open - there’s already a 6 on 5 mismatch in favour of the ABs and plenty of turf
If that chip gets through, Tele'a scores in the corner...
Maybe so but is it the percentage option? If ball in hand will also likely result in the same outcome but has a greater chance of success.....
Furry muff.
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I would rather not get to the point we need 10% kicks to go our way to score.
A big reason we were dominant for SO long is our attack was SO effective and at the same time EXTREMELY repeatable.
Draw and pass, offload when it's clearly on, square the defender etc etc.
I think with the popularity of league-style defences for the past ten years, the kicking game has become more and more of a necessity. Look at the top halves in the NRL: Cleary, Luai, Munster, Hughes aren’t just great distributors who can create mismatches and put players through the gap, they’re very accurate kickers as well, with a vast range of kicks at their disposal. Without the kick, it would be incredibly hard to score a try in league.
As props, hookers and locks become more mobile in rugby as well, it’ll become harder and harder to break the line through simple mismatches. Even the Will Jordan try (where the missed tackle by Genge, the England loosehead prop, caused the linebreak) was the result of elaborate deception, where the All Blacks had set up two 'fake' pods as if to continue on the openside only for Barrett to make a late switch to the blind in order to isolate Genge. Nothing about that is just draw and pass, that is a complex strike move from lineout across 3 phases, just so they could get past a loosehead prop who is a very good defender in his own right.
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@cgrant said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@cgrant said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Just saw the ABs IV game. How good is that jersey??? Much better than the ABs.
Do you have a ling please ?
My AI is not working well. Please read "Link", of course.
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Sorry I’m late to this thread, decent game, good atmosphere, ABs looked lethal in parts, England looked clunky but powerful. Should have won it with 15 mins to go or whatever it was but did what we’ve been doing and shut up shop. Our bench is not as strong as our starting XV, and changing all of them at roughly the same time, particularly forwards is moronic.
Think bringing Smith off for Ford so early given how little rugby Ford has played was stupid. Randall shouldn’t be near the test side either. Hi hum another opportunity missed.
Hoping we get up with the same intensity on Saturday against the Aussies
