Springboks vs All Blacks 2
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Victor Meldrewreplied to mariner4life on 8 Sept 2024, 08:28 last edited by Victor Meldrew 8 Sept 2024, 08:29
@mariner4life said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Fuck the backs
A complete lack of penetration out wide - poor passing, positioning and shit running angles. One of the least effective attacking AB backline performances I've seen.
At least Ratima has tested the "all we need is quick ball to our 10 to slice them apart" hypothesis to destruction.
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@W32 said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
I was telling my wife that we could lose with 2 minutes to go
Mrs Meldrew has now starting moving to the other room when I'm watching the ABs
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So have we all come to terms with:
Razor is the most overrated coach in history
Fozzie (despite not being good) was no where near as shit as people thought
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@mariner4life said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Fuck the backs
A complete lack of penetration out wide - poor passing, positioning and shit running angles. One of the least effective attacking AB backline performances I've seen.
At least Ratima has tested the "all we need is quick ball to our 10 to slice them apart" hypothesis to destruction.
Yeah, after 4 tries in 60 minutes at Ellis Park, we didn’t score yesterday or really have moments when I thought we were going to.
In parts we looked good and our best period was the 2nd quarter of the match but we didn’t really do much in the 2nd half.
The back 3 was poor. Caleb Clarke would have made a big difference and Jordan should stay right wing for now until he is back to somewhere near his best. Give RL a shot.
Players like Sititi, Williams, Ratima, Darry shows that we can give our inexperienced players a chance so it’s time to let TJP, BB enjoy retirement
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@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
So have we all come to terms with:
Razor is the most overrated coach in history
Fozzie (despite not being good) was no where near as shit as people thought
Jury is still out of Robertson, but I can't see him coming back from a loss in Sydney.
Ian Foster is a very decent man, but he often seemed out of his depth as AB coach. His sides put in some really lacklustre performances, but he was able to make them look at their best for the more important matches. That might have been because some of the older players like Whitelock, Retallick and Aaron Smith had certain standards drummed into them as part of the culture of the All Black teams they played for early their international careers. The odd performance based on intense effort and sharp execution didn't hide the lack of evolution or innovation.
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@sparky razor is the greatest coach in history before he even put coached a game for the ABs according to most
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MiketheSnowreplied to Victor Meldrew on 8 Sept 2024, 08:47 last edited by MiketheSnow 8 Sept 2024, 08:58
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@mariner4life said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Fuck the backs
A complete lack of penetration out wide - poor passing, positioning and shit running angles. One of the least effective attacking AB backline performances I've seen.
At least Ratima has tested the "all we need is quick ball to our 10 to slice them apart" hypothesis to destruction.
Said it more than once
Not lying deep enough
Sitting a metre or two further back now that you have the scrum half to pass the ball will give both DMac and JB the time to kick longer (neither of them have quick leg speed when they punt)
It will also create more doubt in the defenders because it will give DMac the time to read what's in front of him and fix the defences
Gives JB the chance to come up to battering ram speed
Putting ALB in at first five allows you to line up flatter. He's quicker off the mark forwards as well as laterally
Gives your back row the time to get to the breakdown and secure quick ruck ball. None of them are lightning
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@Yeahtheboys His record at Crusaders spoke for itself.
But we appointed a coach who was green at preparing sides for the arm wrestle that is modern Test Rugby. He's been schooled by Razzie two weeks in row. If the ABs are to beat South Africa (or Ireland or France) any time soon they will need to be a lot more savvy.
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What I want to know is - what changed in the second half? Thought we were ok in the first half, took the fight to them, but seemed to go back in our shells in the second half.
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@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@mariner4life said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Fuck the backs
A complete lack of penetration out wide - poor passing, positioning and shit running angles. One of the least effective attacking AB backline performances I've seen.
At least Ratima has tested the "all we need is quick ball to our 10 to slice them apart" hypothesis to destruction.
Said it more than once
Not lying deep enough
Sitting a metre or two further back now that you have the scrum half to pass the ball will give both DMac and JB the time to kick longer (neither of them have quick leg speed when they punt)
It will also create more doubt in the defenders because it will give DMac the time to read what's in front of him and fix the defences
Gives JB the chance to come up to battering ram speed
Putting ALB in at first five allows you to line up flatter. He's quicker off the mark forwards as well as laterally
Gives your back row the time to get to the breakdown and secure quick ruck ball. None of them are lightning
How about putting in a 10 who excels in creating space for his outsides?
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I thought tight 5 did enough. Vaii one of the best across two tests and I think we have depth at prop and lock. Hooker still need a solid one two punch. Unfortunately out of Barrett’s and DMac we still do not have a reliable pressure kicker. Let’s give up on Iaone already, zero offload game and zero deception, should be wing or out, Proctor has to get his chance. Reece and Telea are not quality wings, Saffas have about half a dozen wings faster and more skillful than these two. Jordan has done nothing to suggest he is a test quality fullback. You have to look at Love and Perofeta.
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@sparky said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
That might have been because some of the older players like Whitelock, Retallick and Aaron Smith had certain standards drummed into them as part of the culture of the All Black teams they played for early their international careers.
Yet it's many of the senior players from roughly the same era - TJP, BB, etc - who aren't showing the leadership or the standards of old while overall the snr players from 2019 - 23 are busting a gut.
To Foster's credit, he clearly got his players firmly behind him when the chips were down and that's what seems to be dropping off. . That's what disappoints me more than anything.
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@sparky said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
One big thing we've learned is that if Will Jordan plays Test Rugby it's on the Wing. He's an emergency Fullback at best at Test level. Surely we can all agree on that?
Excuse my French but yeah, no shit.
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@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
So have we all come to terms with:
Razor is the most overrated coach in history
Fozzie (despite not being good) was no where near as shit as people thought
Fozzie became a much better coach once he hand the team over to Joe Schmidt
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@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@mariner4life said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Fuck the backs
A complete lack of penetration out wide - poor passing, positioning and shit running angles. One of the least effective attacking AB backline performances I've seen.
At least Ratima has tested the "all we need is quick ball to our 10 to slice them apart" hypothesis to destruction.
Said it more than once
Not lying deep enough
Sitting a metre or two further back now that you have the scrum half to pass the ball will give both DMac and JB the time to kick longer (neither of them have quick leg speed when they punt)
It will also create more doubt in the defenders because it will give DMac the time to read what's in front of him and fix the defences
Gives JB the chance to come up to battering ram speed
Putting ALB in at first five allows you to line up flatter. He's quicker off the mark forwards as well as laterally
Gives your back row the time to get to the breakdown and secure quick ruck ball. None of them are lightning
How about putting in a 10 who excels in creating space for his outsides?
Who the fuck is that in NZ rugby at the moment?
Also, one of DMac's key strengths for the Chiefs is his creating space for his outsides, what's different about the AB tactics that negates this from his game?
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@Nepia said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@canefan said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@mariner4life said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Fuck the backs
A complete lack of penetration out wide - poor passing, positioning and shit running angles. One of the least effective attacking AB backline performances I've seen.
At least Ratima has tested the "all we need is quick ball to our 10 to slice them apart" hypothesis to destruction.
Said it more than once
Not lying deep enough
Sitting a metre or two further back now that you have the scrum half to pass the ball will give both DMac and JB the time to kick longer (neither of them have quick leg speed when they punt)
It will also create more doubt in the defenders because it will give DMac the time to read what's in front of him and fix the defences
Gives JB the chance to come up to battering ram speed
Putting ALB in at first five allows you to line up flatter. He's quicker off the mark forwards as well as laterally
Gives your back row the time to get to the breakdown and secure quick ruck ball. None of them are lightning
How about putting in a 10 who excels in creating space for his outsides?
Who the fuck is that in NZ rugby at the moment?
Also, one of DMac's key strengths for the Chiefs is his creating space for his outsides, what's different about the AB tactics that negates this from his game?
Less space and time in Test Match rugby
For solution, see above
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@sparky said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
One big thing we've learned is that if Will Jordan plays Test Rugby it's on the Wing. He's an emergency Fullback at best at Test level. Surely we can all agree on that?
It was his first time starting in that position in a test? Surely you have to give him some more opportunities to develop there given that's where he's excelled for the Crusaders. Hopefully Love gets an opportunity at some point too (likely on end of year tour).
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@Nepia said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Also, one of DMac's key strengths for the Chiefs is his creating space for his outsides, what's different about the AB tactics that negates this from his game?
Playing between TJP and Jordie?
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@Biorealism said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@sparky said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
One big thing we've learned is that if Will Jordan plays Test Rugby it's on the Wing. He's an emergency Fullback at best at Test level. Surely we can all agree on that?
It was his first time starting in that position in a test? Surely you have to give him some more opportunities to develop there given that's where he's excelled for the Crusaders. Hopefully Love gets an opportunity at some point too (likely on end of year tour).
Surely Will has played more than once at 15? I thought he had started more games at 15 than the wing?
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First time we havnt scored a try in a test since the loss to Ireland in Dublin 2018?
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@Jet said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
First time we havnt scored a try in a test since the loss to Ireland in Dublin 2018?
That is hugely damning
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@mariner4life You ain’t wrong. A few years ago the ABs took Matt Giteau to the glue factory. It’s embarrassing that they’re letting this guy steal a living.
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@Biorealism said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@sparky said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
One big thing we've learned is that if Will Jordan plays Test Rugby it's on the Wing. He's an emergency Fullback at best at Test level. Surely we can all agree on that?
It was his first time starting in that position in a test? Surely you have to give him some more opportunities to develop there given that's where he's excelled for the Crusaders. Hopefully Love gets an opportunity at some point too (likely on end of year tour).
He's Lelia Masaga in a crusaders jersey.
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Some late night thoughts:
Another tense, epic test match.
Small margins, grateful it went the Boks way.Worrying:
Bok set pieces were not an asset like they have been recently.
Easy to to point at the Boks, but actually huge respect for the opposition who nullified / beat us here.
Lineouts: my verdict is the AB's were dominant.
Scrums: Boks marginally ahead, but not enough to make a game impact.
Mauls: No advantage either way, but importantly, this Bok weapon of the past was fully neutralized.
Rush defence: unlocked (easily) a good few times. Great scramble D saved a lot of blushes.Obviously delighted the Boks won.
But equally realistic to know that this could have been 1-1 or even 0-2.
Long live the rivalry. -
@Billy-Webb Rassie has said the same thing. Are you he? 😬
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@stodders
Really?
I suddenly feel like I know more than I actually do...
(it will pass). -
@Nepia And I would throw Rieko into that as well
TJ slower ball then a 12 and 13 only looking for contact.
If they looked up Dmac is one of the best at putting guys into space but they have to want it- there is times when a crash ball is necessary but not every time - vary the lines make the defense panic and have to adjust. -
Is Scott Robertson the worst All Blacks coach of all time?
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@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Is Scott Robertson the worst All Blacks coach of all time?
Dunno, but you saying that after he has been in charge for 2 months, has you in the running for worst AB supporter of all time.
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@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz “razor wins each one of them” based on fucking what? He lost to Argentina at home?
I'm sure the likes of Ireland and Argentina would both admit that they felt a lot more confident playing the All Blacks following their historic wins. Something about getting that monkey off the backs. Those historic defeats (which, Foster is only responsible for Argentina, of course) have seismically affected NZ's mental advantage over the opposition.
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@nzzp said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@Mr-Fish nice to meet you Mrs Robertson
I watched the game with someone who has. Rather taken.
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@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz “razor wins each one of them” based on fucking what? He lost to Argentina at home?
Because I'm comparing the rugby we're playing under Razor to the rugby we played under Foster??
Which was the worst I have ever seen the All Blacks play in decades of watching?Our Argentina loss this year we were up 20-8 and threw the game away where we basically handed 2 free tries and collapsed. A game we blew.
Do you not remember the Argentina losses under Foster?
In those games we were genuinely dominated from minute 1 to minute 80. At NO point in those entire games did we look like winning.That has not happened once in Razors first year. All 3 losses we had a legitimate chance for victory, 2 of them where we had no right to lose from the position we were in.
So yes this is magnitudes better than Fosters first 2 years before Schmidt/Ryan joined.
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Sorry but you can't just gloss over conceding a record number of points at home to fucking Argentina. That was one of the worst matches I can remember as an AB supporter. The way we just crumpled was embarrassing stuff. Razor has a lot to learn at test level - will he get there? We all hope so buy the jury is out still.
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@kpkanz said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
So yes this is magnitudes better than Fosters first 2 years before Schmidt/Ryan joined.
If you were a wallaby fan, you'd be arguing for being up 20-3 being a good thing, before shipping a record number of points in the last quarter against the Pumas (who have quietly over-achieved this year by the way).
Reality is we should win those games. I think the leadership and mindset isn't there - the group of Scott/Ardie/Jordie is fine, but clearly not getting the team mindset int he right place.
How much do we miss SWhitelock? Massively!
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On the game, it's the same problems as the previous week really, some of which are problems created by squad selection which falls squarely on Razor's shoulders.
Our tight 5 is very good, and can match it with any other team. Really happy with the way we have developed there, particularly the locks which looks a position of strength for us now and will be bolstered again when Holland becomes available.
Our loosies are a big weakness still, this has been the most disappointing area by far, and Razor is the man in charge of this space. Cane did was Cane does, but is older, slower, and less effective than he was in the past. Not bad, but nothing standout either. Sititi played well for an 8, but played that game at 6 meaning we didn't have a 6 on the park doing the hard yards on defense and at ruck time. Ardie continued his form slump and was mostly ineffective. Just to play my broken record once more, a trio of Arkia-Cane-Sititi would be potent as fuck but will never happen under this coaching team which is insane to me.
On the backs, we seriously lacked any threat out wide which made defending us a lot easier. We looked better when Rieko was moved to wing as we actually had a threat out wide after that. Reece and Telea are great SR players but are not really test standard, both are a huge step down from Jordan and Clarke on the wings. Moving Jordan to fullback was dumb when he has been so effective on the wing. At fullback we're going to need to give Perofeta and Love game time there as the replacements for Beauden who is obviously in the twilight of his career and has been too inconsistent recently.
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ok, watched the replay
agree with a lot of stuff re individuals, old guys looked bad, young guys looked good
a couple of things that really stood out about HOW were still playing...still tackling too high too often...yes, if you know your part of a two man tackle then try and wrap up the ball....otherwise go low and fold a fluffybunny....we're standing up and if we dont get penalised its allowing their support to get there and drive a couple of meters....its weak
on attack...we're so flat footed...i lost count of how may times guys would get the ball standing on their heels...do a little two step...then fall into contact....hit the ball at fucking pace
structure falls apart after a couple of phases and or broken play....club rugby teams try and get back in shape after broken play, work to an edge, re group...but we dont seem to even try...broken play...dont break the line...kick
really seems like basics we're either not coaching or the players are not implementing
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@nzzp said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
So yes this is magnitudes better than Fosters first 2 years before Schmidt/Ryan joined.
If you were a wallaby fan, you'd be arguing for being up 20-3 being a good thing, before shipping a record number of points in the last quarter against the Pumas (who have quietly over-achieved this year by the way).
Reality is we should win those games. I think the leadership and mindset isn't there - the group of Scott/Ardie/Jordie is fine, but clearly not getting the team mindset int he right place.
How much do we miss SWhitelock? Massively!
I mean I wouldn't argue for any positives if we lost by 40 points.
I was merely stating every loss this year we were in a good position to win it before collapsing.
I'm not HAPPY with collapsing. I was merely comparing it to the feeling of complete despair at some of the bad losses last era. Where we didn't even have an opportunity to collapse because we were that dreadful we were never even in the game.
Yes I agree, our leadership is severely lacking. Almost as if we have so many captains/vice captains they're all looking to each other as to what to do without someone actually just taking charge themselves.
Its quite concerning.
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@booboo said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@stodders said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@nostrildamus he’s playing 7 for Auckland, so play him there. If Cane doesn’t go on EOYT, 7s should be DP, Segner and Savea to cover if needed.
Segner in front of Lakai?
Am not of the Canes Mafia, but I'd be leaning Lakai.
Yeah Lakai is definitely the next in line, they brought him into camp earlier in the season for a reason. He's a solid body aswell through his African/Tongan heritage, plus he's effective on both sides of the ball which we are missing. I can't wait until Lakai and Sititi become a regular combo and I wouldn't be surprised if they both started at the next WC. Lakai has been quite obviously dominant in the NPC after a very strong Super season. It's not a case of if he'll be an AB, it's more a case of when. Hopefully sooner rather than later based on our options atm.
Segner isn't close to being in the ABs yet, he needs to standout at Super level first and for me he hasn't really matched up physically on a consistent basis.
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