All Blacks v Argentina II
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Canes4life would be awesome to see him get a shot.
With some effective coaching he could be a weapon. Even though he improved a lot this year he still has that tendency to drift in and out of games. Hopefully he makes the most of this opportunity. I feel he has a higher ceiling than Tupou IMO, they just need to get him playing at his full potential.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Darren said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Couple stats for De Groot
Ran 5 times for 1 meter total
Made 10 tackles, missed 0So defensively went well, ball in hand not so great.
That's deceiving though. What phase was he taking the ball up is my first question? Do we really expect people to be simply walking through a modern Test defence when IMO it's three different things:
- Good cleans and quick ball which overwhelms the ability of the defence to restructure.
- Shaping so the defence overcompensates and leaves opportunities elsewhere to be exploited.
- Different lines and options so the defence is overwhelmed by decisions it has to make.
I didn't see a lot of that last weekend. What I did see was some aimless high kicking with ineffective chases. When we did do #1 we ended up making ground and scored.
My biggest headscratcher is seeing forwards go away from what's clearly working.
I don't necessarily disagree, but it's funny how this kind of argument comes out when we're talking about someone like EDG but not when other players are brought up. It's all stats, stats, stats until someone's favourite is on the line.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The Crusaders have some shocking losses sprinkled through Razor's reign, but they were all forgotten as his teams had a very good habit of winning all of their finals, so he never really found out.
Perhaps you should just be thankful he actually won his finals games (17/17) and none of them fell under the shocking losses category (like Foster's all-time Super Rugby finals record 17-62 loss in 2009).
Razor coached 118 games in SR and you're telling us his team's not allowed a few shockers? In top level sport it's simply a matter of probability, like it's inevitable to have a few shockers especially if like Razor you are coaching the same club for 7 years.
btw he lost 16 games in total, 6 to Chiefs, 4 to Canes, 2 to Tahs, 2 to Landers, 1 to Blues, 1 to Drua.
I think in your eagerness to jump to Razor's defence you've missed the wider point
In a comp like Super Rugby you can afford to drop a few games as long as you come right at the business end
In test rugby every week is like a playoff.
Crusaders lost 4 games last year. Didn't matter.
If the ABs lose 4 games in a season there are alarm bells ringing (I know the season isn't the same number of games but you get the point).
I get the point, it doesn't seem a relevant criticism for Razor, he is after all the most successful coach in the history of NZ domestic rugby.
Seems a bit strange to expect every All Black coach to come into the job with a near perfect record at previous levels.
Henry for example had a more stacked Blues side than anything Razor had between 2017-23 but a lower winning record (80%) than Razor (84%) and lost finals games that Blues were favourites for.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Canes4life would be awesome to see him get a shot.
With some effective coaching he could be a weapon. Even though he improved a lot this year he still has that tendency to drift in and out of games. Hopefully he makes the most of this opportunity. I feel he has a higher ceiling than Tupou IMO, they just need to get him playing at his full potential.
Just went looking and see he was coached by Razor in u20s. Although so was Akira...
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Canes4life would be awesome to see him get a shot.
With some effective coaching he could be a weapon. Even though he improved a lot this year he still has that tendency to drift in and out of games. Hopefully he makes the most of this opportunity. I feel he has a higher ceiling than Tupou IMO, they just need to get him playing at his full potential.
Just went looking and see he was coached by Razor in u20s. Although so was Akira...
That team was pretty bloody decent. Plenty of those names are in and around the ABs now or have worn the black jersey. Jordan, Clarke, Barrett, Aumua, Umaga-Jensen, Ennor, just to name a few.
I’m glad they didn’t call in Strange.
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Canes4life would be awesome to see him get a shot.
With some effective coaching he could be a weapon. Even though he improved a lot this year he still has that tendency to drift in and out of games. Hopefully he makes the most of this opportunity. I feel he has a higher ceiling than Tupou IMO, they just need to get him playing at his full potential.
Just went looking and see he was coached by Razor in u20s. Although so was Akira...
That team was pretty bloody decent. Plenty of those names are in and around the ABs now or have worn the black jersey. Jordan, Clarke, Barrett, Aumua, Umaga-Jensen, Ennor, just to name a few.
I’m glad they didn’t call in Strange.
You’ve skilfully gone from best to worst here. Was it intentional ?
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Crusaders lost 4 games last year.
Which was a very good achievement, they should've lost more in 2023 with the sheer amount of guys unavailable and players going in and out constantly, whereas you had the Chiefs Blues, Canes all with relatively settled and undisrupted teams all season. Crusaders had no business winning in 2023 and it was a miracle they did.
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The Crusaders have some shocking losses sprinkled through Razor's reign, but they were all forgotten as his teams had a very good habit of winning all of their finals, so he never really found out.
Perhaps you should just be thankful he actually won his finals games (17/17) and none of them fell under the shocking losses category (like Foster's all-time Super Rugby finals record 17-62 loss in 2009).
Razor coached 118 games in SR and you're telling us his team's not allowed a few shockers? In top level sport it's simply a matter of probability, like it's inevitable to have a few shockers especially if like Razor you are coaching the same club for 7 years.
btw he lost 16 games in total, 6 to Chiefs, 4 to Canes, 2 to Tahs, 2 to Landers, 1 to Blues, 1 to Drua.
I think in your eagerness to jump to Razor's defence you've missed the wider point
In a comp like Super Rugby you can afford to drop a few games as long as you come right at the business end
In test rugby every week is like a playoff.
Crusaders lost 4 games last year. Didn't matter.
If the ABs lose 4 games in a season there are alarm bells ringing (I know the season isn't the same number of games but you get the point).
I get the point, it doesn't seem a relevant criticism for Razor, he is after all the most successful coach in the history of NZ domestic rugby.
Seems a bit strange to expect every All Black coach to come into the job with a near perfect record at previous levels.
Henry for example had a more stacked Blues side than anything Razor had between 2017-23 and had a lower winning record (80%) than Razor (84%) lost finals games that Blues were favourites for.
You've got that back to front, it's not a criticism of Razor. The point relating to him is that he's never faced this type of pressure before as he had such a dream run in Super, so it will be interesting to see how he and the ABs respond this week, both selection wise and how we perform on the field.
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Crusaders had no business winning in 2023 and it was a miracle they did.
Sam Whitelock is massive. So was Richie at super level. But yes - I think arguably his best effort as a coach
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Frank said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Watched the Soctt Hansen interview.
I am not going to say - “Something is rotten in the state of Denmark” -yet, but he doesn't give me that good down to earth feeling like say, Vern Cotter did. Too slick, too corporate, and too cocky. Apparently, it's all abpit "opportunities".What happened to just saying we screwed up and we feel ashamed?
There's too many coaches in this team, two of which (MacDonald and Holland) have no record to stand on to lay claim to be in the set up in the first place. This is reflected in the disjointed game plan.
And since Razor loves his assistants - perhaps we hire a how to exit out of our own half coach.
Hansen is a top bloke and a very smart coach he master minded a lot of the plans to combat teams in the Crusaders title play off games.
I had a lot to with Scott at club level down to earth dude.It's not how smart or down to earth he is at Club or SRP level, it's how good he is at Test level. As an armchair expert I'll give him a pass as our D hasn't regressed and has improved in some areas and adapted to opponents.
Unlike our forwards where Robertson really needs to get a grip. All over the place consistency-wise and bugger-all improvement.
Bit early to judge him at test level.
But the big argument for picking Robertson et al was a need for fresh start and Test experience didn't matter - with Foster's Test record being held up as proof experience counted for nothing.
Now when Coach Jesus turns out (unsurprisingly) to have feet of clay, suddenly it's "too early to judge him".
He knows Ryan. He's the AB coach. He sorts it out pronto.
He has won 3 lost 1 too early to judge fuck all yet, some people may be left looking stupid if they judge the wrong way now.
I reserve my judgement until I see more I did afford Foster that as well.I was responding to your argument it was too early to judge Robertson at Test level. The level became irrelevant when he took the job on.
I'll reserve judgement until the EOYT, maybe earlier if the downward slide continues, but he needs to sort the forwards mess pronto.
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The Crusaders have some shocking losses sprinkled through Razor's reign, but they were all forgotten as his teams had a very good habit of winning all of their finals, so he never really found out.
Perhaps you should just be thankful he actually won his finals games (17/17) and none of them fell under the shocking losses category (like Foster's all-time Super Rugby finals record 17-62 loss in 2009).
Razor coached 118 games in SR and you're telling us his team's not allowed a few shockers? In top level sport it's simply a matter of probability, like it's inevitable to have a few shockers especially if like Razor you are coaching the same club for 7 years.
btw he lost 16 games in total, 6 to Chiefs, 4 to Canes, 2 to Tahs, 2 to Landers, 1 to Blues, 1 to Drua.
I think in your eagerness to jump to Razor's defence you've missed the wider point
In a comp like Super Rugby you can afford to drop a few games as long as you come right at the business end
In test rugby every week is like a playoff.
Crusaders lost 4 games last year. Didn't matter.
If the ABs lose 4 games in a season there are alarm bells ringing (I know the season isn't the same number of games but you get the point).
I get the point it doesn't seem a relevant criticism for Razor, he is after all the most successful coach in the history of NZ domestic rugby.
Seems a bit strange to expect every All Black coach to come into the job with a near perfect record at previous levels.
Henry for example had a more stacked Blues side than anything Razor had between 2017-23 and had a lower winning record (80%) than Razor (84%) lost finals games that Blues were favourites for.
I'm not sure you do get the point, because that's not the point.
Henry didn't go straight from Super to ABs he had years as Wales coach (including a home World Cup) and then also coached the British and Irish Lions.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The Crusaders have some shocking losses sprinkled through Razor's reign, but they were all forgotten as his teams had a very good habit of winning all of their finals, so he never really found out.
Perhaps you should just be thankful he actually won his finals games (17/17) and none of them fell under the shocking losses category (like Foster's all-time Super Rugby finals record 17-62 loss in 2009).
Razor coached 118 games in SR and you're telling us his team's not allowed a few shockers? In top level sport it's simply a matter of probability, like it's inevitable to have a few shockers especially if like Razor you are coaching the same club for 7 years.
btw he lost 16 games in total, 6 to Chiefs, 4 to Canes, 2 to Tahs, 2 to Landers, 1 to Blues, 1 to Drua.
I think in your eagerness to jump to Razor's defence you've missed the wider point
In a comp like Super Rugby you can afford to drop a few games as long as you come right at the business end
In test rugby every week is like a playoff.
Crusaders lost 4 games last year. Didn't matter.
If the ABs lose 4 games in a season there are alarm bells ringing (I know the season isn't the same number of games but you get the point).
I get the point, it doesn't seem a relevant criticism for Razor, he is after all the most successful coach in the history of NZ domestic rugby.
Seems a bit strange to expect every All Black coach to come into the job with a near perfect record at previous levels.
Henry for example had a more stacked Blues side than anything Razor had between 2017-23 and had a lower winning record (80%) than Razor (84%) lost finals games that Blues were favourites for.
You've got that back to front, it's not a criticism of Razor. The point relating to him is that he's never faced this type of pressure before as he had such a dream run in Super, so it will be interesting to see how he and the ABs respond this week, both selection wise and how we perform on the field.
The issue is you made it out like Razor losing 4 matches in the regular season last year was some black mark against him - ok who was the last team to win Super Rugby before Razor's run from 2017? Hurricanes in 2016 - who also lost 4 games in the regular season, 2015 Highlanders lost 5 regular season games, 2014 Waratahs lost 4 regular season games.
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I was going to say, doesn’t he have a huge win % in super rugby!?
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The Crusaders have some shocking losses sprinkled through Razor's reign, but they were all forgotten as his teams had a very good habit of winning all of their finals, so he never really found out.
Perhaps you should just be thankful he actually won his finals games (17/17) and none of them fell under the shocking losses category (like Foster's all-time Super Rugby finals record 17-62 loss in 2009).
Razor coached 118 games in SR and you're telling us his team's not allowed a few shockers? In top level sport it's simply a matter of probability, like it's inevitable to have a few shockers especially if like Razor you are coaching the same club for 7 years.
btw he lost 16 games in total, 6 to Chiefs, 4 to Canes, 2 to Tahs, 2 to Landers, 1 to Blues, 1 to Drua.
I think in your eagerness to jump to Razor's defence you've missed the wider point
In a comp like Super Rugby you can afford to drop a few games as long as you come right at the business end
In test rugby every week is like a playoff.
Crusaders lost 4 games last year. Didn't matter.
If the ABs lose 4 games in a season there are alarm bells ringing (I know the season isn't the same number of games but you get the point).
I get the point, it doesn't seem a relevant criticism for Razor, he is after all the most successful coach in the history of NZ domestic rugby.
Seems a bit strange to expect every All Black coach to come into the job with a near perfect record at previous levels.
Henry for example had a more stacked Blues side than anything Razor had between 2017-23 and had a lower winning record (80%) than Razor (84%) lost finals games that Blues were favourites for.
You've got that back to front, it's not a criticism of Razor. The point relating to him is that he's never faced this type of pressure before as he had such a dream run in Super, so it will be interesting to see how he and the ABs respond this week, both selection wise and how we perform on the field.
The issue is you made it out like Razor losing 4 matches in the regular season last year was some black mark against him - ok who was the last team to win Super Rugby before Razor's run from 2017? Hurricanes in 2016 - who also lost 4 games in the regular season, 2015 Highlanders lost 5 regular season games, 2014 Waratahs lost 4 regular season games.
Isn't that the point? Losing 4 games wasn't a black mark, it didn't matter in the grander scheme. Not a luxury you have as AB coach.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I'll reserve judgement until the EOYT, maybe earlier if the downward slide continues, but he needs to sort the forwards mess pronto.
he won 3 games in a row as AB coach and lost a fourth is a downward slide?
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Isn't that the point? Losing 4 games wasn't a black mark, it didn't matter in the grander scheme. Not a luxury you have as AB coach.
But it's cherry-picking because you're only looking at his worst season with consistent disruptions to the squad. Crusaders dropped 1 game in 2017, 2 in 2018, 2 & 2 draws in 2019, 2 in 2020 and 2021. The slide only started in 2022, with 3 losses lol.
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Isn't that the point? Losing 4 games wasn't a black mark, it didn't matter in the grander scheme. Not a luxury you have as AB coach.
But it's cherry-picking because you're only looking at his worst season with consistent disruptions to the squad. Crusaders dropped 1 game in 2017, 2 in 2018, 2 & 2 draws in 2019, 2 in 2020 and 2021. The downward slide only started in 2022.
Let me put it another way
If Razor had started a Crusaders season with 3 wins and 1 loss no one would bat an eye lid
Conversely all of a sudden there's some pressure on Razor in the ABs following the weekend
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I'll reserve judgement until the EOYT, maybe earlier if the downward slide continues, but he needs to sort the forwards mess pronto.
he won 3 games in a row as AB coach and lost a fourth is a downward slide?
Well it certainly isn't upwards, is it?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I'll reserve judgement until the EOYT, maybe earlier if the downward slide continues, but he needs to sort the forwards mess pronto.
he won 3 games in a row as AB coach and lost a fourth is a downward slide?
You're only as good as your last game, as they say
