All Blacks vs Argentina I
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Probably the most important positions in this team are 12, 13.
The correct cliche here is - "The most important position tighthead prop and the second most important position is tighthead prop."
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@cgrant
If Aaron Smith couldn’t out pass a rush defense there really is no way any halfback can do that on his own.That may be correct, but it certainly doesn't mean a slow halfback can't make it very much harder.
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@DaGrubster although, for large parts of the past 4 years, he did not run the ball, and when he wasnt setting up for a kick, you knew he was passing so we were very predictable, so yes his pass helped, but our predictability didnt.
Only when he seemed to reintroduce his running game last year did we find gaps with these rush defences.
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@taniwharugby a running game from the halfback definitely helps, but similar can be achieved by forwards (and blindside wingers) looking for pop passes close in / pick n go.
I'd say the problem was our overall tactics being a bit shit i.e. as well as lack of 9 sniping: a lack of ball runners in the forwards, lack of a direct approach before moving the ball, and 10s and 12s who aren't great passers trying to play flat. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@taniwharugby a running game from the halfback definitely helps, but similar can be achieved by forwards (and blindside wingers) looking for pop passes close in / pick n go.
I'd say the problem was our overall tactics being a bit shit i.e. as well as lack of 9 sniping: a lack of ball runners in the forwards, lack of a direct approach before moving the ball, and 10s and 12s who aren't great passers trying to play flat.I'll take this as an opportunity to talk about the SR Champions again
The Blues flooded the centre of the field with forward runners, both wingers came in and did plenty of hard work. Also we generally picked 12's similar to Jordie (Lam & Heem) and they constantly cut back in and applied pressure to the same defenders. The pretty tries came later in the games
For some reason there seems to be a belief that NZ can't play this style in Test matches and win. From this coaching staff and the previous group. However we have seen glimpses of it (2nd half v France a few years ago)
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@Duluth I reckon that's absolutely the best style for us to play up front. our speed out back is a huge asset, but good teams know they can rob us of it by playing the rush defence well. and we sit here going 'oh let's beat it with a low percentage chip kick' and then wonder why we have no ball and no field position.
fuck that, you beat it by going up the guts. get them moving backwards so they can't rush, then speed of ball from a quick halfback and a good passing 10 like mckenzie. or make a little break in close and their next defender has rushed, that's a split defensive line to exploit. -
@Duluth good call.
Lions 1 in 2017 we ripped apart the rush defence using angled runners at the seam between the backs and the forwards around the ruck. It works. Hard carrying in close draws in defenders.
Vern obviously figured we could do well there, and it worked. As you say though, we don't back ourselves at the top level with that approach. In fairness, previous major games against physical opposition (thinking particularly SA2015, but other games as well) we got beaten up physically up front - but we had more mobile athletes who kept at it and eentually came out on top. With the modern rules on benches and the advent of 40 minute forward packs, I have no idea if we can compete with a power game. Obviously the coaches think we can't though.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
fuck that, you beat it by going up the guts. get them moving backwards so they can't rush, then speed of ball from a quick halfback and a good passing 10 like mckenzie. or make a little break in close and their next defender has rushed, that's a split defensive line to exploit.
quoting so I can like this again. Top call, you're talking my language.
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I agree with all of the above, but the coaches have not picked the right players to implement that gameplan. They've picked a bunch of loose forwards that are all essentially the same player bar the rookie Finau. The Blues had success with that as they had Akira and Hoskins carrying the ball in close. The ABs don't have anyone as effective as them at that.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@cgrant
If Aaron Smith couldn’t out pass a rush defense there really is no way any halfback can do that on his own.Agreed. But a halfback can make it impossible for the rest of the team to achieve it.
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I'm gonna be sick a little but look at Ireland when they were good, they had JGP with quick service in close, not just passing but movement too - and then forward runners at pace and angled. Not forward runners standing still running straight with supporting runners hesitating whilst also running straight.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
I'm gonna be sick a little but look at Ireland when they were good, they had JGP with quick service in close, not just passing but movement too - and then forward runners at pace and angled. Not forward runners standing still running straight with supporting runners hesitating whilst also running straight.
When they beat us in the series at home they totally schooled us
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@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@taniwharugby a running game from the halfback definitely helps, but similar can be achieved by forwards (and blindside wingers) looking for pop passes close in / pick n go.
I'd say the problem was our overall tactics being a bit shit i.e. as well as lack of 9 sniping: a lack of ball runners in the forwards, lack of a direct approach before moving the ball, and 10s and 12s who aren't great passers trying to play flat.I'll take this as an opportunity to talk about the SR Champions again
The Blues flooded the centre of the field with forward runners, both wingers came in and did plenty of hard work. Also we generally picked 12's similar to Jordie (Lam & Heem) and they constantly cut back in and applied pressure to the same defenders. The pretty tries came later in the games
For some reason there seems to be a belief that NZ can't play this style in Test matches and win. From this coaching staff and the previous group. However we have seen glimpses of it (2nd half v France a few years ago)
Double upvote.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
I'm gonna be sick a little but look at Ireland when they were good, they had JGP with quick service in close, not just passing but movement too - and then forward runners at pace and angled. Not forward runners standing still running straight with supporting runners hesitating whilst also running straight.
We’ve seen only glimpses of that so far in the opening 3 tests and far too much flat footed catching.
We’ve gone through cycles of it though. I can think back to Mealamu, Ben Franks, Ali Williams etc getting flat footed ball. But then we had a period of Kieran Read, early Ofa, Retallick getting it from a deeper position with some steam behind them changing the point of attack.
Varying our depth will assist - need our organisers barking
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Kaino didn't really need angle changes or a shift in gears.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
I agree with all of the above, but the coaches have not picked the right players to implement that gameplan. They've picked a bunch of loose forwards that are all essentially the same player bar the rookie Finau. The Blues had success with that as they had Akira and Hoskins carrying the ball in close. The ABs don't have anyone as effective as them at that.
I'm quoting this and bolding this so I can like it again
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Kaino didn't really need angle changes or a shift in gears.
Maybe, but he certainly did much better when angles were worked, right? But yeah I don't know why we don't just select Kaino.
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
I'm gonna be sick a little but look at Ireland when they were good, they had JGP with quick service in close, not just passing but movement too - and then forward runners at pace and angled. Not forward runners standing still running straight with supporting runners hesitating whilst also running straight.
When they beat us in the series at home they totally schooled us
Did they though?
We beat them first up. I argued Foster got dudded as with decent refereeing we don't see the imbalance in red cards.
They sneaked over the top of us with 14 in test 2, then beat us fair and square in 3 ... Although we got to learn about soaking tackles that break cheek bones
They were slightly better over three tests.i don't think that's schooled.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Frank said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Anyone have opinions on Cameron Suafoa as the 6?
Workrate? Speed?
Doesn't lack for grunt.At Super level he's played more lock than 6 (quite impressively too).
He has a couple of promising outings at 6 for the Maori ABs. Once vs Ireland a couple of years back and then the first MAB vs Japan XV a few weeks ago.
He looks to have the frame and game for 6 but needs game time there. With Akira going he has a great chance to take the Blues 6 jersey next year (hopefully back to full fitness too following his battle with cancer)
I was at the Maori Ireland game at the Tron - I thought Suafoa was the best player that night, stood out / fronted up well against a NH forward pack, moving bodies in contact especially.
