All Blacks 2024
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So, the last dozen entries (in addition to, I guess, my own replies) in this thread reminded me that with regard to AB midfielders I don't rate:
Ennor
Havilli
Ioane
TupeaALB is getting on and is more like a bandaid whenever one of the above guys get mentioned as AB contender. Solid but not spectacular.
JBarrett is a cup half full or cup half empty, depending on how you look at his time at 12.
Strangely, McCleod is the only one of the current AB midfielders that hasn't gone down in my estimation, but maybe that's bc he hadn't been coached by you-know-who for many seasons.
If you look at those listed, there are several examples of utility players and recent positional converts in that group. Some of them even struggle to identify themselves exclusively as a 12 or a 13 (falling around between the two spots). NZ is the only major country that doesn't always select specialists in midfield. This is strange considering the past disastrous Cullen, McDonald, Ben Smith positional switch episodes and how long it took T Umaga to get the hang of his midfield duties.
There are some specialist options at super level (ppl who play in the same position week in and week out). With some deep thought re specific combinations, there could be some positive surprises imo. Of course, those uncapped players need to show form this year.
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@Punch_up A great post. In the last World Cup cycle France and Ireland had midfielders with much more skills and guile than ours. This is something I want the new coaches to look at fixing urgently.
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@Punch_up said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
NZ is the only major country that doesn't always select specialists in midfield
If that was true, it would be interesting, you're right. Alas, the likes of Kriel and Fickou make it false.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
The Way Razor has set up the selection of the squad is very good imo.
Having each coach responsible for the selection of certain positions.
The pointer to selection of the team is not all around Razor but where the other coaches will lean towards.five different selecting groups for one team. what could go wrong?
Over seen by Razor and Wayne smith Nothing imo.
So who's actually in charge of selecting the team?
The structure of selection
Ryan picks the tight 5
Razor the LFs
Hanson Hbs and First fives
Holland MF
McDonald outside backsRazor overseas the selection with Wayne Smiths in put.
Yeah, I get the structure, But who is actually in charge of selecting the team? Or do you mean training squad.
EDIT: Just seen you replied "Both".
So in reality it's a committee of 5 to pick 15 positions for a Test match and that committee is overseen by one bloke with input from another. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
It will be interesting it maybe a masterstroke or as you say a disaster.
Have zero problem with 5 coaches suggesting players and input from an éminence grise, but Roberson has to take any final decisions
I suppose if makes all the coaching staff responsible for certain areas and gets them to buy in to the team even more.
If Robertson has to do that to get his coaches to buy into his team, then we are really up shit creek in a barbed-wire canoe without a paddle....
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I'm convinced the combination is as important as the players. Without looking it up, I'd guess RI/JB have spent as much time together as any other 12/13 combination in the last few years.
I'd imagine Robertson will stick with JB/RI for this year but hope he tries some new combinations off the bench and against the lesser teams in the latter part.
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@Bones Kriel is a specialist 13 that was pushed out to wing due to the meteoric rise of Am. It was also during a period when their first choice wingers weren't available iirc. In South Africa, moving a player from a more complex role like 13 to wing (seen as the "easier" position) on a temporary basis is not uncommon. A move in the opposite direction (from being a specialist wing to playing as a 13) is far more rare in the Republic though. I don't think I've seen them attempt the 15 to 13 switch at test level like the ABs have done three times.
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@Victor-Meldrew Yeah, I agree to a degree and I suspect they'll do as you suggest, but just want Razor (or should I say Holland) to pick some new midfielders and start giving them gametime as combinations a.s.a.p.
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@Punch_up said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Bones Kriel is a specialist 13 that was pushed out to wing due to the meteoric rise of Am. It was also during a period when their first choice wingers weren't available iirc. In South Africa, moving a player from a more complex role like 13 to wing (seen as the "easier" position) on a temporary basis is not uncommon. A move in the opposite direction (from being a specialist wing to playing as a 13) is far more rare in the Republic though. I don't think I've seen them attempt the 15 to 13 switch at test level like the ABs have done three times.
I mean if you want to go down that route, JB is a specialist 12 and RI is a specialist 13. They just got moved to "easier" positions first....
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Don't forget Nonu developed his passing and kicking skills over time
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@Victor-Meldrew Razor is so smart for doing this.
Me: "Razor and the AB selectors totally ignored my favourite 1st Five--"
Razor: "Don't blame me. Send your hatemail to Hansen."
Me: "And why didn't you pick those three fullbacks I like?!"
Razor: "Here's Leon MacDonald's email address. All complaints re outside back go to him."
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Don't forget Nonu developed his passing and kicking skills over time
Still playing too.
If he’s keen to become the oldest AB ever I’d thoroughly endorse any attempts he made at a comeback too.
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@Punch_up said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Victor-Meldrew Yeah, I agree to a degree and I suspect they'll do as you suggest, but just want Razor (or should I say Holland) to pick some new midfielders and start giving them gametime as combinations a.s.a.p.
Why? They need to demonstrate that they're the best in their positions at the lower level and then impress in the squad first.
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Aaron Golie suggesting Cane as captain again this year:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/133533229/scott-barrett-as-all-blacks-captain-lets-just-hold-our-crusaders-horsesI don't think that makes sense. Cane's output isn't as consistent as what it was and it's hard to see that improving with another year on the clock
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@antipodean Of course. I just don't want Holland to be too conservative in his selections when uncapped midfielders do impress at super level.
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@Bones They started in those positions, but spent significant time outside of midfield (JB bc he moved to a team where he played everywhere but 12 and Rieko bc his speed made wing seem logical). At times their current play makes that clear - they lack some of subtleties that come from consistent years in midfield.
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@Punch_up said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@antipodean Of course. I just don't want Holland to be too conservative in his selections when uncapped midfielders do impress at super level.
On that we agree. I want form players given opportunities, otherwise what's the point?
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Punch_up said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@antipodean Of course. I just don't want Holland to be too conservative in his selections when uncapped midfielders do impress at super level.
On that we agree. I want form players given opportunities, otherwise what's the point?
But it has to be done within a framework of existing core players. Foster's penchant for picking a swag of new players all at once is counter productive and doesn't build combinations or confidence
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Wait - wasn't one of the more common criticisms of Foster that he was overly loyal to existing players?
But now also - a penchant for picking swags of new players all at once?
He was truly a troublesome little (or not-so-little, compulsory fat-joke, guffaw) devil, wasn't he? -
@Punch_up come on man, just concede your original premise was a stab in the dark, that sounded good but had no basis in fact. NZ aren't the only team that select guys who play other positions, despite how much you move the goal posts.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
He might even be as good as Hart I reckon.
God I hope not.
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Anyone know the confirmed NZ NH Tour itinerary 2024.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Anyone know the confirmed NZ NH Tour itinerary 2024.
As per normal we only find out well late, and the best way to see what is happening is to see what the NH say they are playing. But 2x england home, fiji home/away, 2x SA away, split Oz, 2x arg home, Fr and Ire away, I think. Not necessarily in that exact order
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
Fr and Ire away, I think.
Eng & France away. Probably Ireland too and there’s been a suggestion we play Japan on the way home
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@Bones I don't think I need to concede anything of the sort. Name a country other than NZ that converted their test fullback into a 13 not once, not twice, but on three seperate occasions? Name a country other than NZ that converted their test winger into a 13 on two different occasions? That's five different positional switches by outside backs to the 13 jersey in the span of approximately 25 years.
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I think its prob
Oct 26 Japan
Nov 2 England
Nov 9 Italy
Nov 16 France
Nov 23 IrelandAlready booked the hotel in Dublin so hope right date
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Ireland game will be a ripper.
Cant get enthused by Twickenham very underwhelming place and a long way from the pitch. -
Robertson very luckily avoiding egg on his face for being the first AB coach to lose to Scotland. No way this latest AB team in rebuild mode would be able to handle a rugged experienced pack, Finn Russell pulling the strings like the magician he is, hard hitting
TonganScot Sione Tuipulotu in midfield and a rampaging pair ofBokshaggis munchers in Van De Merwe and Steyn out wide. -
@Punch_up said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Bones I don't think I need to concede anything of the sort. Name a country other than NZ that converted their test fullback into a 13 not once, not twice, but on three seperate occasions? Name a country other than NZ that converted their test winger into a 13 on two different occasions? That's five different positional switches by outside backs to the 13 jersey in the span of approximately 25 years.
Happy to remind you of what you said if it's too hard to remember bro! I'm leaning towards, the above is exactly not what you said, not even close. Fickou, Farrell, North....or are these now minor countries?
@Punch_up said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
NZ is the only major country that doesn't always select specialists in midfield -
I don't think it's unusual at all for wings fullbacks and wings to swap places, same as fullbacks and 1st fives etc. I seem to recall Aus swapping players around quite a bit, and Boks etc. If I could be bothered etc I would have a look somewhere. Quite often teams liked starting players on wing until they get used to test rugby as the defence at 13 is so specialised? The likes of Ioane was a centre before he was a wing. Even Cullen started his provincial rugby rugby at centre etc
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I don't think it's unusual at all for wings fullbacks and wings to swap places, same as fullbacks and 1st fives etc. I seem to recall Aus swapping players around quite a bit, and Boks etc. If I could be bothered etc I would have a look somewhere. Quite often teams liked starting players on wing until they get used to test rugby as the defence at 13 is so specialised? The likes of Ioane was a centre before he was a wing. Even Cullen started his provincial rugby rugby at centre etc
Australia were brilliant at getting all their awesome outside backs on the pitch together.
That was 20 odd years ago though, they’re shit now.
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@Dan54 Switching between wing and fullback is common. Switching between 10 and 15 isnt unusual. Totally Agree.
However, switching from 15 to 13 is not as common and where it's been done it's been disastrous (esp at the highest level).
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@Punch_up said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
@Bones Clearly, I was talking about outside backs (fullbacks and wingers) being converted into 13s, bc all the examples I cited were... outside backs (fullbacks and wingers) being converted into 13s.
No mate, clearly this is what you said.
@Punch_up said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
NZ is the only major country that doesn't always select specialists in midfieldYou still haven't clarified who the major countries are either.
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@Punch_up ok mate, I realise you probably talking about moving to 13, but I actually think most that you talk about were actually 13s who played at wing or fullback anyway, to be fitted in. I thinking didn't Ben Smith play 13 for the Otago and the Clan, Mils Mulianan was another, as I said Cullen was.
I not saying it always works , but I sure the Boks have done it a number of times and those players I think played at centre at lower levels too. -
Happy new year Ferners.
Having just read through this thread I’m not sure what gave me more of a laugh, the midfield / fullback hoohah (@Punch_up remember Matt Burke from OZ played both centre and fullback) or @sparky naming Drummond.
I’m optimistic about the future but am under no illusion that replacing both Whitelock and Retallick at the same time is a massive hole to fill. They were set and forget and it didn’t matter which one you selected, they were reliable as and not to mention their influence around the team.
Same with Aaron Smith. Yes we have some good young talent but we could see some rocky paths ahead as these guys find their feet at test level. Which brings me to the 9/10 combination. DMac is a courageous player but for me he is a really good fullback that can play 10. Saw some signs in last year’s Super rugby but at this point he still needs to shore up a few things as a 1st 5.
There is a lot of developing to be done because whilst there might be 10 names you could pen into a starting XV and start to convince yourself that “hey that’s not a bad lineup”, trying to bring the rest of it together becomes a little harder. The makeup of the match day 23 and the other squaddies, there are still a lot of question marks on who has the right skillset and will fit whatever gameplan they have.
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@ACT-Crusader Happy New Year! I hope it's a great one for you and yours.
For the record, I didn't say I'd select Drummond for the ABs in 2024, I said 'how about this side?' 😉
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I'm fairly certain we'll see at least one new player come through at Half Back.
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2024 - looking forward:
I'm fairly certain we'll see at least one new player come through at Half Back.
Woah, steady on there sunshine! No need to push the boat out too far.
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