RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks
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Commiserations Kiwis. That was a great final, and a great effort from your team. Very unlucky in the end.
r.e. the cards - my view (from watching in real time in a very busy pub, so I might change my mind when I've watched it back) is that they were all correct, except possibly Frizell's which seemed harsh, didn't seem to me that he did much wrong.
Cane's red and Kolisi's yellow - I reckon they were correct decisions, but it does suck.
Two things:
We're all sick of talking about it, but the inconsistency is killing us. When the TMO intervenes, which offences are which colour, etc. There's no excuse for it.
And while I think Cane's was a RC offence and Kolisi's was a YC due to mitigation, it really highlights that while difference between a red and yellow offence can be very marginal, the differnce between the punishments is massive - especially for an early red. I wasn't a fan of the 20 minute rule when it was first suggested, but I've come around to thinking it would help.
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@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@mariner4life said in [RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks]
Frizzell was carded for falling over
That's the one we were really dudded on, I think.
"A rugby collision", O'Keefe said - and that's basically what this was. They said as much when they didn't upgrade it. And handed the Boks the early momentum.
I didn’t know the law / focus area of not allowing people to fall on exposed knees etc - ITV had the Irish ref on call who immediately called it as an issue, Barnes then reffed it exactly as he said he should. He was actually concerned it would be red. The fact we didn’t know about it doesn’t mean it wasn’t reffed correctly
Which law?
If he'd done it intentionally, it would have been red. Accidentally falling on someone is an accident.
20d, and intentionally is not mentioned in that law
Dangerous play in a ruck or maul.
A player may lever the jackler out of the contest at the ruck but must not drop their weight onto them or target the lower limbs.
"Target" is the operative word.
"Or target" he dropped his weight on the lower limbs= penalty/card. At the same time as he was attempting a neck roll.
It was dumb, penalty only for me, but you asked what law. That's the law. Argue if you want, but that's the law
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Hope Cane has a strong support network. Dude completely let his team down. Will be hard to reconcile and hopefully the country isn't too hard on him.
We played pretty well otherwise considering what was on the line. Ability under the high ball was a bit disappointing though.
PStD was immense. One of the all time performances. There will be a few AB's with PTSD after that. It was exactly the performance we were hoping to see from our captain.
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@mariner4life said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
The one thing that I don't think we should let the coaching team and players off with is our poor discipline. We all knew this was a problem and has been a big problem over the last few years, so why have they not fixed it? Two yellows against Ireland and the cards today in the two biggest games of the year is simply unforgivable.
Cane was trying to get us up, and it kinda worked
Frizzell was carded for falling over
Savea was penalised for nothing.Our discipline wasn't bad today. If cane is a fraction lower on a guy changing direction we're starting to put them under pressure
Cane's red was definitely a red. No excuses and unacceptable from a captain in a RWC final. Refs are extra harsh on the ABs now and seem to let SA off with their indiscretions, so it was even more crucial for our guys to watch their discipline.
Agree with you on Frizell's YC, that was a bs call.
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Haven’t read the thread.
Obviously gutted. There are days and there are days. This is the latter. Decipher that as you will.
I would like to think, that what was the centrepiece of our game being utterly ruined like this, there will be some wholesale changes to improve it. So it doesn't ever happen again. But then that would assume that the people who decide the rules actually care about the game. There is no feel for the gravity of the situation or what’s at stake from that gormless tnuc in the TMO box. He’s a grown up hall monitor. The teachers pet that even the teacher doesn’t fucking like. The feeling with any of these officials should be about the game. It’s flow and the affect whatever contentious call may have on the game. It can not be some idiot, train spotter with zero fan in him making these calls. I’m not for a moment suggesting that these people turn a blind eye. But to over turn an on field decision so long after the fact. To decide one head contact doesn’t require any type of review and then another a red card. Then once the precedent has been set go ahead and ignore your own standards by allowing Kolisi to return. That not only is there no feel for the game but there is a level of self interpretation going on. Not a clear directive.
Im absolutely fine with SA winning. They deserved it. They played what was in front of them and defended like demons. du Toit was immense. I wish we had someone in our team that kept people looking to see where he is. He fairly blindsided fucking everyone today.
We had the chance to take the lead and we missed both of them. We also l, IMO, should have kept pushing instead of taking the long range attempt. Our ball security was horrid and players we’ve depended on went missing. Jordan and Taylor at the front of that line. I felt the choice to sub Smith was the worst call we made as a team. He was in control and the game was far from decided. Christie shouldn’t have been in the match day squad let alone on the field. Talea was my MOM. He was outstanding. Savea close behind. The props DeGroot and Lomax carried well and held up our scrum amazingly.
I don’t think we were supposed to win. Not in the stars, World Rugbys plans and certainly not in the poor excuse for a coaches playbook. If there’s one take away from all of this, and I am not vengeful person, but Fozzy did not really deserve to have “World Cup winning head coach” in his resume. And he doesn’t.
Malo boys. Malo. You did us proud.
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@GibbonRib said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Commiserations Kiwis. That was a great final, and a great effort from your team. Very unlucky in the end.
r.e. the cards - my view (from watching in real time in a very busy pub, so I might change my mind when I've watched it back) is that they were all correct, except possibly Frizell's which seemed harsh, didn't seem to me that he did much wrong.
Cane's red and Kolisi's yellow - I reckon they were correct decisions, but it does suck.
Two things:
We're all sick of talking about it, but the inconsistency is killing us. When the TMO intervenes, which offences are which colour, etc. There's no excuse for it.
And while I think Cane's was a RC offence and Kolisi's was a YC due to mitigation, it really highlights that while difference between a red and yellow offence can be very marginal, the differnce between the punishments is massive - especially for an early red. I wasn't a fan of the 20 minute rule when it was first suggested, but I've come around to thinking it would help.
Mitigation on Kolisi? What bit is mitigation? The bit where AS is upright and SK clocks him on the nose?
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@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@mariner4life said in [RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks]
Frizzell was carded for falling over
That's the one we were really dudded on, I think.
"A rugby collision", O'Keefe said - and that's basically what this was. They said as much when they didn't upgrade it. And handed the Boks the early momentum.
I didn’t know the law / focus area of not allowing people to fall on exposed knees etc - ITV had the Irish ref on call who immediately called it as an issue, Barnes then reffed it exactly as he said he should. He was actually concerned it would be red. The fact we didn’t know about it doesn’t mean it wasn’t reffed correctly
Which law?
If he'd done it intentionally, it would have been red. Accidentally falling on someone is an accident.
20d, and intentionally is not mentioned in that law
Dangerous play in a ruck or maul.
A player may lever the jackler out of the contest at the ruck but must not drop their weight onto them or target the lower limbs.
"Target" is the operative word.
"Or target" he dropped his weight on the lower limbs= penalty/card. At the same time as he was attempting a neck roll.
It was dumb, penalty only for me, but you asked what law. That's the law. Argue if you want, but that's the law
So you can't fall over in rugby anymore?
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@Joans-Town-Jones yeah I thought Kolisi was the worse, looked more like he was rising up, whereas Cane was always too high.
But we knew this RWC would have a contentious RC, and oddly, I have been surprised how few there have been, up until the big dance...
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Replacing Jordan with ALB probably wasn't a genius move.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel no but then leaving Jordon on would have been dicey too. The occasion just got the better of him.
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@raznomore said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel no but then leaving Jordon on would have been dicey too. The occasion just got the better of him.
I reckon DMac for Jordan would have been the better option at that point
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@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Nepia said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
The only thing I'd really call Barnes out on was that he would call play it earlier for Smith than for Faf.
None of that was on Barnes. Barnes was fine, it was the random TMO coming in that was the difference. Barnes shouldn't be copping it
In the first half, Barnes let a lot go in terms of high shots and some of the challenges for high balls where Kolbe in particular was very late/didn't time his jump and just hit the Mo'unga. For the second half, Barnes just commentated for the TMO although in his defence, at least he was more accurate and more interesting than the ITV crowd..
For the disallowed try, he had called it on the field as a knock back onto Ardies leg and said play on. For the subsequent penalty and following two penalties, Barnes and the assistants seemed to just be guessing and hoping the TMO would help them out.
When Kwagga Smith came on, a number of balls started flying out of rucks on the Bok side after he had told Smith to get his hands off the ball and the jackler supporting their weight became optional. I think the only penalty after the 56th minute was Kolbe's sending off for either side.
Barnes retreated from the game and let others handle it. Similarly, the assistant refs didn't provide a lot of assistance which is probably why the TMO became so key to many decisions. And that indicates to me that either Barnes team weren't up to the task of a final or that the TMO has taken too much control away from the referee making it difficult to manage a game. Or both.
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@raznomore said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel no but then leaving Jordon on would have been dicey too. The occasion just got the better of him.
He was definitely having a mare, but he's the guy who can turn a game in an instant in those dying moments. ALB was never going to spark something.
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@taniwharugby said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Joans-Town-Jones yeah I thought Kolisi was the worse, looked more like he was more upright and driving up, whereas Cane was always too high.
But we knew this RWC would have a contentious RC, and oddly, I have been surprised ow few there have been, up until the big dance...
And I'm not disputing the SC red card. Heck, I would settle for a penalty for both only at the most. I'm not even blaming Barnes. We had our chances. But fuck me the TMO needs to fuck off. If SF is copping a YC for that, you have to penalise every tackle on rugby and we are one step away from playing 15 aside touch.
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@PecoTrain said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Nepia said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
The only thing I'd really call Barnes out on was that he would call play it earlier for Smith than for Faf.
None of that was on Barnes. Barnes was fine, it was the random TMO coming in that was the difference. Barnes shouldn't be copping it
In the first half, Barnes let a lot go in terms of high shots and some of the challenges for high balls where Kolbe in particular was very late/didn't time his jump and just hit the Mo'unga. For the second half, Barnes just commentated for the TMO although in his defence, at least he was more accurate and more interesting than the ITV crowd..
For the disallowed try, he had called it on the field as a knock back onto Ardies leg and said play on. For the subsequent penalty and following two penalties, Barnes and the assistants seemed to just be guessing and hoping the TMO would help them out.
When Kwagga Smith came on, a number of balls started flying out of rucks on the Bok side after he had told Smith to get his hands off the ball and the jackler supporting their weight became optional. I think the only penalty after the 56th minute was Kolbe's sending off for either side.
Barnes retreated from the game and let others handle it. Similarly, the assistant refs didn't provide a lot of assistance which is probably why the TMO became so key to many decisions. And that indicates to me that either Barnes team weren't up to the task of a final or that the TMO has taken too much control away from the referee making it difficult to manage a game. Or both.
Interesting point. The onfield officials put the whistle away and listened in as it was reffed from the TV.
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@Joans-Town-Jones yep, either both Red or both not IMO, 2 solid head contacts where the tackler wasnt in the right position
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@Rancid-Schnitzel agree. But if there was anyone who I wanted the ball to go to it was Talea and he was still on the field. A myriad of things could have happened to turn the game and unfortunately they didn’t come off. I doubt very much ALB coming on, in the grand scheme of things, was the losing of the game.
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I don't drink much and my parents wouldn't let me kick their cat so I went for a run to get out the anger and disappointment. Running in the opposite direction was a guy wearing a Bok jersey. He was a goofy looking mofo (not your Teutonic, beef fed specimen that wins world cups) and despite my bitterness I gave him a salute.
It's what we do.
