RWC SF: England v Springboks
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@Catogrande said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@W32 said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@W32 said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel are you as willing to accept that curry might have made it up ?
Yeah sure. For shits and giggles during the middle of the game Curry decided to make up a story about hearing a racial slur. He even planned it out with Marler and Farrell in advance. They made a pact to do it.
You’re saying curry isn’t capable of gamesmanship?
Of course he is capable of it. Is Mbonambi capable of calling Curry a White fluffybunny? Of course he is capable of that. In neither case though does that mean either happened. If you want to consider probability, it is more likely that Bongi called him a White fluffybunny in the heat of the moment than that Curry suddenly decided to make up a story about a racial slur. Just as likely though is Bongi calling out in Afrikaans and Curry mistakenly taking exception to it.
For once WR seem to be taking the right stance. Investigation, consideration, decision.
Likely outcome? Nothing to see here, move on.
The thing that strikes me as funny though is that if Bongi did call him a White fluffybunny, everyone will be up in arms only about the bit that is indisputable. Curry is definitely white, whether he’s a fluffybunny or not is just a matter of opinion.
The point I'm making is that @Rancid-Schnitzel Is convinced it happened.
I'm just pointing out that he quick to jump to conclusions. Agree with your dialog.
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@stodders said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Catogrande if he’d just called him a fluffy bunny (allegedly for @Bones) there would be nothing to see here.
But we’re in a vicious spiral to the bottom in an era of identity politics. So using the colour of someones skin as an adjective when verbally having a pop at someone is a no go zone. Assume pitchforks and torches are waiting if you do.
The insidious part of the accusation is that this bok team and Bongi himself represent SA’s painfully slow, difficult and uneven attempts to shed the evils of racism. Though that work is sadly far from finished, they’re a powerful and sadly, pretty lonely, emblem of the huge benefits of embracing equality and harnessing diversity.
All the more powerful given the racist history of SA rugby, its difficulty shedding apartheid’s legacy and the heights Siya’s boks have scaled together, united as South Africans.
We should all celebrate it - rugby did this. As South Africans we know we owe a debt to Kiwis who protested and home nations who boycotted and the many rugby people who spoke out, refused to play or welcomed exiled Safricans into their clubs. Subsequently the rugby community generously welcomed us back and allowed us to host the RWC in 95. Siya, Bongi, Ox as well as Eben, Duane and Kwagga playing together in harmony in a semifinal against their former colonist without enmity in the land of liberty, equality and fraternity is a legacy that we all share and ought to treasure.
So I admit my prejudice: I don’t want it tarnished on the strength of what one exhausted man thought he heard over the roar of the crowd as he was caught up in the swirling vortex of that glorious night. No matter how bravely he was playing or how true his yeoman heart.
As a South African and a Mbonambi admirer from way back, I admit my further prejudice: White fluffybunny’s a shit sledge.
It’s been a long while since I played in SA and longer since I lived there, but White fluffybunny wasn’t an insult that I ever heard (unless I was wearing white.) And hell, I got the full inventive range of suiver (correct) Afrikaans/coloured Afrikaans insults (to say nothing of our other 10 languages) hurled at me - mostly by my own teammates. So it seems improbable to me that Bongi would add what to South Africans would be a neutral descriptor if he wanted to call Curry a doos (fluffybunny in Afrikaans.) Rancid, yes, cheating, every practice, clumsy, sure, ma se, fucked out, exploded, awful, huge, rough, syphalitic, all the time, but white? Only for the season I played in a white jersey. And my Zulu mates caught it just as often as me.
But all this is just me bringing my own cultural bias and experiences to the issue. If they’re at odds with the facts then Mbonambi should face appropriate consequences.
On the other hand, if Mbonambi didn’t hurl out a racist slur I’d hope that Curry and everyone else who assumed the accusation might have merit or who jumped onto last week’s lip reading exercise might examine their inbuilt prejudices and maybe update their mental model of this SA team.
My bias is for us all to embrace and take pride in the minor miracle of Siya’s multiracial bok team even if Mbonambi was a stupid fluffybunny and hurled the alleged slur. But of all the flavours of fluffybunny hurled at me on pitches and in grandstands and pubs across the globe, no ones every called me a naive fluffybunny. So I’m not holding my breath.
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@OomPB said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Smuts What about the Kiwis who played rugby against the Springboks?
Regtig Oom?
I’m not judging their rough choice any more than Oom Louw’s decision to go on the flourbomb tour despite his outspoken condemnation of apartheid in rugby. Louw thought he could do more good befriending Māori players. And he was probably right, though it conveniently allowed him to keep playing for the boks.
Maar ek kannie vir hom blammeer nie (but I can’t blame him). I’ve made far worse moral decisions for far less reward. But it’s important to recognize and celebrate the courage of guys like Kirk who took a stand and showed us all that some things are just bigger than rugby.
I’m using Kirk only because I know he turned down pretty good cash when he refused to go on the Cavaliers tour. Sadly, I don’t know which if any ABs refused to play the boks in official test matches because they objected to apartheid. I’m sure some of our kiwi mates can improve my ignorance.
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@Bones said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@nostrildamus exactly and there's nothing at all to suggest that the ref apparently heard that, so it's a shithouse accusation to make. You're basically saying the ref heard it (apparently) and let it slide.
You're basically saying
I'm not. You're just adding in new words to change what I meant.
it's a shithouse accusation to make
I am not accusing anyone. I could have said "allegedly" as that is what I meant:
"You use apparently to indicate that the information you are giving is something that you have heard, but you are not certain that it is true."
As for "nothing at all"? Then I don't know what World Rugby is investigating because as far as I know England has not made a complaint and after the match Curry did not want to talk about any "allegation."
World Rugby investigating alleged racial slur in England-South Africa World Cup semifinal
World Rugby says it will review an allegation of racism from South Africa's World Cup semifinal win over England, with Springboks hooker Bongi Mbonambi at risk of missing the final if found guilty.
I don't know why you are wasting time on this. I don't know what was said, I don't know if BOK heard what Curry might have heard but his answer as reported could be read in at least 2 different ways (he heard it, he didn't hear it but told Curry not to do anything anyway) as I explained. But you aren't listening anyway so I'll follow your example.
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Why not just admit your first post was incorrect and move on? No one gives a shit
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@W32 said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@W32 said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@W32 said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel are you as willing to accept that curry might have made it up ?
Yeah sure. For shits and giggles during the middle of the game Curry decided to make up a story about hearing a racial slur. He even planned it out with Marler and Farrell in advance. They made a pact to do it.
You’re saying curry isn’t capable of gamesmanship?
Of course he is capable of it. Is Mbonambi capable of calling Curry a White fluffybunny? Of course he is capable of that. In neither case though does that mean either happened. If you want to consider probability, it is more likely that Bongi called him a White fluffybunny in the heat of the moment than that Curry suddenly decided to make up a story about a racial slur. Just as likely though is Bongi calling out in Afrikaans and Curry mistakenly taking exception to it.
For once WR seem to be taking the right stance. Investigation, consideration, decision.
Likely outcome? Nothing to see here, move on.
The thing that strikes me as funny though is that if Bongi did call him a White fluffybunny, everyone will be up in arms only about the bit that is indisputable. Curry is definitely white, whether he’s a fluffybunny or not is just a matter of opinion.
The point I'm making is that @Rancid-Schnitzel Is convinced it happened.
I'm just pointing out that he quick to jump to conclusions. Agree with your dialog.
Um what?
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@W32 said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@W32 said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel are you as willing to accept that curry might have made it up ?
Yeah sure. For shits and giggles during the middle of the game Curry decided to make up a story about hearing a racial slur. He even planned it out with Marler and Farrell in advance. They made a pact to do it.
You’re saying curry isn’t capable of gamesmanship?
It was definitely a pact.
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@Smuts said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@OomPB said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Smuts What about the Kiwis who played rugby against the Springboks?
Regtig Oom?
I’m not judging their rough choice any more than Oom Louw’s decision to go on the flourbomb tour despite his outspoken condemnation of apartheid in rugby. Louw thought he could do more good befriending Māori players. And he was probably right, though it conveniently allowed him to keep playing for the boks.
Maar ek kannie vir hom blammeer nie (but I can’t blame him). I’ve made far worse moral decisions for far less reward. But it’s important to recognize and celebrate the courage of guys like Kirk who took a stand and showed us all that some things are just bigger than rugby.
I’m using Kirk only because I know he turned down pretty good cash when he refused to go on the Cavaliers tour. Sadly, I don’t know which if any ABs refused to play the boks in official test matches because they objected to apartheid. I’m sure some of our kiwi mates can improve my ignorance.
Graham Mourie is one.
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@Smuts That 1981 rugby tour played a massive role for Afrikaans rugby supporters to experience what we miss in international rugby and give FW de Klerk the yes vote to free South Africa. Now 40 years later South Africa turned into a 3rd world country mess. Us here take it day by day and just try our best to have a roof over our head and food on table. everything else is a bonus. But you should know this.
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Well I guess that's an end to the discussion...
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@OomPB said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
What about the Kiwis who played rugby against the Springboks?
There was plenty of soul-searching going on in NZ at the time,and putting aside the nutters, two genuine schools of thought who knew segregation should be ended: join the boycott to force change from the top or play and show integrated sports teams were the way forward, and support the SA rugby administrators who were trying to change things internally,
There was some serious debate. Colin Meads, for example, very much supported the latter approach but was equally clear he respected, even admired, the views of those who refused to play against SA.
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My old man went on a Welsh Male Voice Choir tour of SA during the apartheid years
He saw a Cavaliers match
The choir sang to white only audiences, black only audiences, and mixed audiences
Each member of the choir was put on the UN Blacklist (ironic isn't it) for performing at the non-segregated concerts
Go figure
They fostered a relationship with a choir from Soweto whom they funded over the years
When apartheid ceased the choir went back over and sang with the Soweto choir at a joint concert in Soweto
And two years later they paid for the Soweto choir to come over to Wales on a singing tour
They've both been back twice since
My father's choir (Cwmbach) also went to Belfast during the height of the troubles and to Hungary as the Russians were heading in
His, and the other choristers, attitude was go to bring people together
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Great post.
I seem to recall Danie Craven being called an apartheid apologist and a traitor to the white race simultaneously - while at the same time working behind the scenes to bring people together, grow non-white rugby and end segregation
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@MiketheSnow Cool post mate.
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@OomPB said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
and by the way, Rob Louw come from Wynberg Boys, Doc Craven identified him as a schoolboy and brought him to Maties to become a Springbok.
My old man was also brought to Wilgenhof by Doc . But only because he was so average he’d never play for Maaties and so be free to turn out for Wilgenhof. Think Louw was already gone but Oom Morne was still at Stellenbosch playing for WO/boks and never playing for Die Plek.
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@Catogrande said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@OomPB said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Smuts so your dad was a Bek fluitjie.
Ref?
Nee - n ou man van Die Plek.*
No - an old boy of Wilgenhof (the Stellenbosch residence run for years by Doc Craven. Notorious for its rugby and lunacy.)
