6N Ireland v England

[Steve]

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@The-Irishman said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Duluth said in 6N Ireland v England:

Here’s a video of incident that’s being discussed

Was Jaco’s arm out for a forward pass, or lost possession (knock on) after contact?

Knock on. You see him briefly wave his left arm forward to indicate a knock on advantage.

You've got to feel for Steward. That was harsh in my opinion.

So the contact from Steward created the knock on

So Keenan was in possession when he was hit by Steward

So Steward should have made a tackle

He didn’t, and in the process of turning away from the ball carrier his elbow made contact with the ball carrier’s head

Can’t see why anyone is aggrieved and/or unsure why he got a red

I think you guys are talking about different knock ons. One pre contact with Steward and one after.

Mack Hansen initially drops the ball forward like a drunk with a tray of pints. It’s not marginal . He has spilled forward at 11 o clock from his own body .

Keenan still tried to play it for some reason , you could argue he had over ran the pass if it was lateral or backwards , but Keenan finds himself playing it anyway. He clatters into Steward who is trying to evade, pull out or brace for the impending impact.

Keenan cops one in the Chevy Chase and then knocks the ball on for the second time in the play.

[The Irishman]

This post is deleted!

[MiketheSnow]

@Steve said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@The-Irishman said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Duluth said in 6N Ireland v England:

Here’s a video of incident that’s being discussed

Was Jaco’s arm out for a forward pass, or lost possession (knock on) after contact?

Knock on. You see him briefly wave his left arm forward to indicate a knock on advantage.

You've got to feel for Steward. That was harsh in my opinion.

So the contact from Steward created the knock on

So Keenan was in possession when he was hit by Steward

So Steward should have made a tackle

He didn’t, and in the process of turning away from the ball carrier his elbow made contact with the ball carrier’s head

Can’t see why anyone is aggrieved and/or unsure why he got a red

I think you guys are talking about different knock ons. One pre contact with Steward and one after.

Mack Hansen initially drops the ball forward like a drunk with a tray of pints. It’s not marginal . He has spilled forward at 11 o clock from his own body .

Keenan still tried to play it for some reason , you could argue he had over ran the pass if it was lateral or backwards , but Keenan finds himself playing it anyway. He clatters into Steward who is trying to evade, pull out or brace for the impending impact.

Keenan cops one in the Chevy Chase and then knocks the ball on for the second time in the play.

Jaco didn’t signal a knock on nor a forward pass from Hansen, so the play is still live

Keenan gathers, is in possession, and then gets clattered and loses possession

That’s when Jaco indicated advantage England

[The Irishman]

I think you might be right there Mike after watching that a few times.

[Bones]

Thanks @Duluth first time I've watched again since the game and it's worse than I thought.

@MajorRage I don't know what you're watching to say Steward had switched off - he's watching Keenan all the way into contact, and came from a long way back.

[MajorRage]

@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:

Thanks @Duluth first time I've watched again since the game and it's worse than I thought.

@MajorRage I don't know what you're watching to say Steward had switched off - he's watching Keenan all the way into contact, and came from a long way back.

Sorry that was unclear from me, he's switched off from the defensive play. He came from a long way back because if the pass is good and ball is caught he needs to defensively shut things down. When that doesn't happen, he slows down and starts turning. Keenan is not looking in front of him anymore & gets the ball and as he's moving he lifts his head from a low position (which naturally causes a body acceleration) and his head smashes into Stewards arm. Head contact, red.

Did Peyper get it wrong according to rules? Probably not.
What was the real collision? Keenan head butting Steward, or Steward elbowing Keenan? For me, its definitely the former.
Could Steward have done better? If he'd thought solely about rules/duty of care, I think so yes. But don't forget the play literally fell down less than a second before the collission
Was common sense applied? No, not at all. But rugby rules haven't been common sense for years

I said after Lions 3 that a little bit of my passion for rugby died that day after the French farce. So far today, I'm hearing similar from colleagues.

We should be talking about the Irish grand slam. But nobody is. Including the Irish. Would this be the case if it was a yellow card or penalty only? In my view, no. And remember, this is when I think majority would agree Peyper probably applied the rules correctly.

[MiketheSnow]

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:

Thanks @Duluth first time I've watched again since the game and it's worse than I thought.

@MajorRage I don't know what you're watching to say Steward had switched off - he's watching Keenan all the way into contact, and came from a long way back.

He's switched off from the defensive play. He came from a long way back because if the pass is good and ball is caught he needs to defensively shut things down.

When that doesn't happen, he slows down and starts turning. Keenan is not looking in front of him anymore & gets the ball and as he's moving he lifts his head from a low position (which naturally causes a body acceleration) and his head smashes into Stewards arm. Head contact, red.

Did Peyper get it wrong according to rules? Probably not.
What was the real collision? Keenan head butting Steward, or Steward elbowing Keenan? For me, its definitely the former.
Could Steward have done better? If he'd thought solely about rules/duty of care, I think so yes. But don't forget the play literally fell down less than a second before the collission
Was common sense applied? No, not at all. But rugby rules haven't been common sense for years

I said after Lions 3 that a little bit of my passion for rugby died that day after the French farce. So far today, I'm hearing similar from colleagues.

We should be talking about the Irish grand slam. But nobody is. Including the Irish.

I still don’t understand this ‘shutting down / pulling out’ idea

Jaco only indicated ‘advantage England’ after Steward had clattered into Keenan causing Keenan to lose possession forward

Up until that point Jaco was happy with Hansen’s pass and it was play on

You play the whistle, not what you think has happened

[MajorRage]

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:

Thanks @Duluth first time I've watched again since the game and it's worse than I thought.

@MajorRage I don't know what you're watching to say Steward had switched off - he's watching Keenan all the way into contact, and came from a long way back.

He's switched off from the defensive play. He came from a long way back because if the pass is good and ball is caught he needs to defensively shut things down.

When that doesn't happen, he slows down and starts turning. Keenan is not looking in front of him anymore & gets the ball and as he's moving he lifts his head from a low position (which naturally causes a body acceleration) and his head smashes into Stewards arm. Head contact, red.

Did Peyper get it wrong according to rules? Probably not.
What was the real collision? Keenan head butting Steward, or Steward elbowing Keenan? For me, its definitely the former.
Could Steward have done better? If he'd thought solely about rules/duty of care, I think so yes. But don't forget the play literally fell down less than a second before the collission
Was common sense applied? No, not at all. But rugby rules haven't been common sense for years

I said after Lions 3 that a little bit of my passion for rugby died that day after the French farce. So far today, I'm hearing similar from colleagues.

We should be talking about the Irish grand slam. But nobody is. Including the Irish.

I still don’t understand this ‘shutting down / pulling out’ idea

Jaco only indicated ‘advantage England’ after Steward had clattered into Keenan causing Keenan to lose possession forward

Up until that point Jaco was happy with Hansen’s pass and it was play on

You play the whistle, not what you think has happened

I'm not buying the above. Plenty of players play what in front of them when something obvious has happened. Steward changed his whole play / actions after the shitty forward pass. Just because Peyper hasn't indicated it doesn't mean the play isn't going to change because off it.

[MiketheSnow]

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:

Thanks @Duluth first time I've watched again since the game and it's worse than I thought.

@MajorRage I don't know what you're watching to say Steward had switched off - he's watching Keenan all the way into contact, and came from a long way back.

He's switched off from the defensive play. He came from a long way back because if the pass is good and ball is caught he needs to defensively shut things down.

When that doesn't happen, he slows down and starts turning. Keenan is not looking in front of him anymore & gets the ball and as he's moving he lifts his head from a low position (which naturally causes a body acceleration) and his head smashes into Stewards arm. Head contact, red.

Did Peyper get it wrong according to rules? Probably not.
What was the real collision? Keenan head butting Steward, or Steward elbowing Keenan? For me, its definitely the former.
Could Steward have done better? If he'd thought solely about rules/duty of care, I think so yes. But don't forget the play literally fell down less than a second before the collission
Was common sense applied? No, not at all. But rugby rules haven't been common sense for years

I said after Lions 3 that a little bit of my passion for rugby died that day after the French farce. So far today, I'm hearing similar from colleagues.

We should be talking about the Irish grand slam. But nobody is. Including the Irish.

I still don’t understand this ‘shutting down / pulling out’ idea

Jaco only indicated ‘advantage England’ after Steward had clattered into Keenan causing Keenan to lose possession forward

Up until that point Jaco was happy with Hansen’s pass and it was play on

You play the whistle, not what you think has happened

I'm not buying the above. Plenty of players play what in front of them when something obvious has happened. Steward changed his whole play / actions after the shitty forward pass. Just because Peyper hasn't indicated it doesn't mean the play isn't going to change because off it.

And he made the wrong decision, with clumsy execution which in today’s climate is a red card

[antipodean]

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

I still don’t understand this ‘shutting down / pulling out’ idea

Steward in one step turns side on to Keenan with his arm fixed against his side.

https://i.imgur.com/vmPycK9.mp4

I'm not happy with the incidence of game defining cards loosely presented under the fallacy of protecting players, but under the current interpretation, this is a clear cut and correct application of the law.

[MajorRage]

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:

Thanks @Duluth first time I've watched again since the game and it's worse than I thought.

@MajorRage I don't know what you're watching to say Steward had switched off - he's watching Keenan all the way into contact, and came from a long way back.

He's switched off from the defensive play. He came from a long way back because if the pass is good and ball is caught he needs to defensively shut things down.

When that doesn't happen, he slows down and starts turning. Keenan is not looking in front of him anymore & gets the ball and as he's moving he lifts his head from a low position (which naturally causes a body acceleration) and his head smashes into Stewards arm. Head contact, red.

Did Peyper get it wrong according to rules? Probably not.
What was the real collision? Keenan head butting Steward, or Steward elbowing Keenan? For me, its definitely the former.
Could Steward have done better? If he'd thought solely about rules/duty of care, I think so yes. But don't forget the play literally fell down less than a second before the collission
Was common sense applied? No, not at all. But rugby rules haven't been common sense for years

I said after Lions 3 that a little bit of my passion for rugby died that day after the French farce. So far today, I'm hearing similar from colleagues.

We should be talking about the Irish grand slam. But nobody is. Including the Irish.

I still don’t understand this ‘shutting down / pulling out’ idea

Jaco only indicated ‘advantage England’ after Steward had clattered into Keenan causing Keenan to lose possession forward

Up until that point Jaco was happy with Hansen’s pass and it was play on

You play the whistle, not what you think has happened

I'm not buying the above. Plenty of players play what in front of them when something obvious has happened. Steward changed his whole play / actions after the shitty forward pass. Just because Peyper hasn't indicated it doesn't mean the play isn't going to change because off it.

And he made the wrong decision, with clumsy execution which in today’s climate is a red card

Ok, so taking our disagreement of Stewards process out ....

Do you personally think this action/play was worthy of a game changing red card?

[MiketheSnow]

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:

Thanks @Duluth first time I've watched again since the game and it's worse than I thought.

@MajorRage I don't know what you're watching to say Steward had switched off - he's watching Keenan all the way into contact, and came from a long way back.

He's switched off from the defensive play. He came from a long way back because if the pass is good and ball is caught he needs to defensively shut things down.

When that doesn't happen, he slows down and starts turning. Keenan is not looking in front of him anymore & gets the ball and as he's moving he lifts his head from a low position (which naturally causes a body acceleration) and his head smashes into Stewards arm. Head contact, red.

Did Peyper get it wrong according to rules? Probably not.
What was the real collision? Keenan head butting Steward, or Steward elbowing Keenan? For me, its definitely the former.
Could Steward have done better? If he'd thought solely about rules/duty of care, I think so yes. But don't forget the play literally fell down less than a second before the collission
Was common sense applied? No, not at all. But rugby rules haven't been common sense for years

I said after Lions 3 that a little bit of my passion for rugby died that day after the French farce. So far today, I'm hearing similar from colleagues.

We should be talking about the Irish grand slam. But nobody is. Including the Irish.

I still don’t understand this ‘shutting down / pulling out’ idea

Jaco only indicated ‘advantage England’ after Steward had clattered into Keenan causing Keenan to lose possession forward

Up until that point Jaco was happy with Hansen’s pass and it was play on

You play the whistle, not what you think has happened

I'm not buying the above. Plenty of players play what in front of them when something obvious has happened. Steward changed his whole play / actions after the shitty forward pass. Just because Peyper hasn't indicated it doesn't mean the play isn't going to change because off it.

And he made the wrong decision, with clumsy execution which in today’s climate is a red card

Ok, so taking our disagreement of Stewards process out ....

Do you personally think this action/play was worthy of a game changing red card?

Yes

Came from a long way back

Had plenty of opportunity not to make contact if he believed that the pass was forward and Jaco would have awarded a scrum to England

On the commentary, Jaco clearly says first offence knock on

[MajorRage]

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

Ok, so taking our disagreement of Stewards process out ....

Do you personally think this action/play was worthy of a game changing red card?

Yes

Then we are clearly on different wavelengths of the future of rugby.

Came from a long way back

Had plenty of opportunity not to make contact if he believed that the pass was forward and Jaco would have awarded a scrum to England

Look I completely get the safety aspect, I honestly do. But the game is professional and the athletes are getting bigger, quicker & faster. Most of the players now are colossal human beings. You simply can't put in rules to mitigate all injuries, it's not possible.

I run a lot, and I probably trip / slip / duck suddenly roughly once or twice a week. I know when I do this I lose sight of what's in front and if I was to collide into something, it would really hurt, really stun me and in almost all situations, cause a concussion.

I 100% believe that the bigger accidental movement which caused the injury was from Keenan, not Steward.

On the commentary, Jaco clearly says first offence knock on

After the incident, thus it's largely irrelevant. The second ground level shot shows the pass clearly as miles forward, which would have been the way Steward saw it.

Regardless, I think this convo has come to it's conclusion. We don't agree and are on different wavelengths with respect to actions etc which is probably better off on the state of rugby thread.

[MiketheSnow]

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:

Thanks @Duluth first time I've watched again since the game and it's worse than I thought.

@MajorRage I don't know what you're watching to say Steward had switched off - he's watching Keenan all the way into contact, and came from a long way back.

He's switched off from the defensive play. He came from a long way back because if the pass is good and ball is caught he needs to defensively shut things down.

When that doesn't happen, he slows down and starts turning. Keenan is not looking in front of him anymore & gets the ball and as he's moving he lifts his head from a low position (which naturally causes a body acceleration) and his head smashes into Stewards arm. Head contact, red.

Did Peyper get it wrong according to rules? Probably not.
What was the real collision? Keenan head butting Steward, or Steward elbowing Keenan? For me, its definitely the former.
Could Steward have done better? If he'd thought solely about rules/duty of care, I think so yes. But don't forget the play literally fell down less than a second before the collission
Was common sense applied? No, not at all. But rugby rules haven't been common sense for years

I said after Lions 3 that a little bit of my passion for rugby died that day after the French farce. So far today, I'm hearing similar from colleagues.

We should be talking about the Irish grand slam. But nobody is. Including the Irish.

I still don’t understand this ‘shutting down / pulling out’ idea

Jaco only indicated ‘advantage England’ after Steward had clattered into Keenan causing Keenan to lose possession forward

Up until that point Jaco was happy with Hansen’s pass and it was play on

You play the whistle, not what you think has happened

I'm not buying the above. Plenty of players play what in front of them when something obvious has happened. Steward changed his whole play / actions after the shitty forward pass. Just because Peyper hasn't indicated it doesn't mean the play isn't going to change because off it.

And he made the wrong decision, with clumsy execution which in today’s climate is a red card

Ok, so taking our disagreement of Stewards process out ....

Do you personally think this action/play was worthy of a game changing red card?

Yes

Then we are clearly on different wavelengths of the future of rugby.

Look I completely get the safety aspect, I honestly do. But the game is professional and the athletes are getting bigger, quicker & faster. Most of the players now are colossal human beings. You simply can't put in rules to mitigate all injuries, it's not possible.

I run a lot, and I probably trip / slip / duck suddenly roughly once or twice a week. I know when I do this I lose sight of what's in front and if I was to collide into something, it would really hurt, really stun me and in almost all situations, cause a concussion.

I 100% believe that the bigger accidental movement which caused the injury was from Keenan, not Steward.

Sorry I was editing

Please see above

Yes we are on different wavelengths

[Steve]

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:

Thanks @Duluth first time I've watched again since the game and it's worse than I thought.

@MajorRage I don't know what you're watching to say Steward had switched off - he's watching Keenan all the way into contact, and came from a long way back.

Sorry that was unclear from me, he's switched off from the defensive play. He came from a long way back because if the pass is good and ball is caught he needs to defensively shut things down. When that doesn't happen, he slows down and starts turning. Keenan is not looking in front of him anymore & gets the ball and as he's moving he lifts his head from a low position (which naturally causes a body acceleration) and his head smashes into Stewards arm. Head contact, red.

Did Peyper get it wrong according to rules? Probably not.
What was the real collision? Keenan head butting Steward, or Steward elbowing Keenan? For me, its definitely the former.
Could Steward have done better? If he'd thought solely about rules/duty of care, I think so yes. But don't forget the play literally fell down less than a second before the collission
Was common sense applied? No, not at all. But rugby rules haven't been common sense for years

I said after Lions 3 that a little bit of my passion for rugby died that day after the French farce. So far today, I'm hearing similar from colleagues.

We should be talking about the Irish grand slam. But nobody is. Including the Irish. Would this be the case if it was a yellow card or penalty only? In my view, no. And remember, this is when I think majority would agree Peyper probably applied the rules correctly.

super post.

[Catogrande]

This is a very Fern thread divergence in that seemingly it is only the English and Irish that are not frothing at the mouth one way or another.

Just the view that it was perhaps a bit tough on Steward but not surprising he was carded. Not much else to see. Time to move on.

But this is the Fern and long may it be so.

[junior]

@mariner4life said in 6N Ireland v England:

oh i know why he got a red, the process was followed perfectly. The refs couldn't have done any better.

I just hate the way all the replays took the 2 seconds before the final contact away. That ball is in dispute because of a forward pass and Steward was going for the ball, he's second to it by a split second, and a reflex action saw him sent off.

He wasn't thinking about a tackle, he was thinking "get the ball" so he's not in a position to make a "legal tackle"
Under the current thinking he was fucked no matter what he did because he was always going to be higher than Keenan and was always going to make contact with the head.

It's a nailed on red card in 2023. Doesn't mean i have to like the way these things are looked at.

This to me is the major problem with the rules as they currently are - as a player, you constantly have to make a decision as to whether or not to play rugby in any particular moment. Because if you choose to play rugby - by, for example, going for a loose ball, as Steward did - and you do not do it perfectly, you could be off and having early shower.

The slippery slope of all this would be to turn the match into a 15-man game of touch, because the consequences of simply trying to play rugby will often far outweigh the benefit of doing so.

[Steve]

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MiketheSnow said in 6N Ireland v England:

@MajorRage said in 6N Ireland v England:

@Bones said in 6N Ireland v England:

Thanks @Duluth first time I've watched again since the game and it's worse than I thought.

@MajorRage I don't know what you're watching to say Steward had switched off - he's watching Keenan all the way into contact, and came from a long way back.

He's switched off from the defensive play. He came from a long way back because if the pass is good and ball is caught he needs to defensively shut things down.

When that doesn't happen, he slows down and starts turning. Keenan is not looking in front of him anymore & gets the ball and as he's moving he lifts his head from a low position (which naturally causes a body acceleration) and his head smashes into Stewards arm. Head contact, red.

Did Peyper get it wrong according to rules? Probably not.
What was the real collision? Keenan head butting Steward, or Steward elbowing Keenan? For me, its definitely the former.
Could Steward have done better? If he'd thought solely about rules/duty of care, I think so yes. But don't forget the play literally fell down less than a second before the collission
Was common sense applied? No, not at all. But rugby rules haven't been common sense for years

I said after Lions 3 that a little bit of my passion for rugby died that day after the French farce. So far today, I'm hearing similar from colleagues.

We should be talking about the Irish grand slam. But nobody is. Including the Irish.

I still don’t understand this ‘shutting down / pulling out’ idea

Jaco only indicated ‘advantage England’ after Steward had clattered into Keenan causing Keenan to lose possession forward

Up until that point Jaco was happy with Hansen’s pass and it was play on

You play the whistle, not what you think has happened

I'm not buying the above. Plenty of players play what in front of them when something obvious has happened. Steward changed his whole play / actions after the shitty forward pass. Just because Peyper hasn't indicated it doesn't mean the play isn't going to change because off it

Reminds me of the Bjorn Basson try from 2011 vs Rebels. 1.42 on in this video.
Kirchner spills it a mile forward. Everybody stops instinctively. The play is deader than dead. Basson ambles up , picks up and jogs in for a try comedically.

People on this thread would have you believe there are 30 automatons on the field who just play to the whistle, who are in full control of everything they do and anything they do is intentional and premeditated. They give no empathy to instinct, reaction, being unsighted, being off balance etc. It must be great to live in such a slo-mo black and white world.

[MajorRage]

@Catogrande said in 6N Ireland v England:

This is a very Fern thread divergence in that seemingly it is only the English and Irish that are not frothing at the mouth one way or another.

Just the view that it was perhaps a bit tough on Steward but not surprising he was carded. Not much else to see. Time to move on.

But this is the Fern and long may it be so.

Quite the opposite in my work.

In truth, it's not huge as in most peoples mind it didn't affect the outcome of the game. If it had happened in the reverse (irish man off, going for the GS) you can bet your arse it would be never ending.

[Steve]

Read this elsewhere regarding the red card:

What you are saying is counter to basic logic, go and look at any, and I mean any rugby training in the last 15 years and you will find something called the tower of power, it might be labelled something else based on the country you are from but its the stance they teach players from minis all the way up to adults. That stance is instinctive in all decent to very good rugby players, it is used to protect yourself in contact.
It was simply a rugby accident and didn't even merit a penalty, regardless of who you support or which laws you follow. The ball wasn't in either teams possession as it was thrown forward, so its not as if Stewart targetted the fullback with a shot, if anything he was pulling out of what would have been a tackle, where in all likelihood his shoulder would have hit the full back in the face.
Some people are saying the Irish full back should bear responsibility but thats not true either, from minis to adults, you are taught to dive on the loose ball to recover it.
Neither training technique is going to be removed, ever, so the responsibility sits with World Rugby and referee education. the only way they'll learn is by falls in coverage.