Black Caps v England
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@Chris-B said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido I haven't read your theory anywhere except here. Ian Anderson raises a variety of possibilities, but the best info we have is Stead saying they haven't asked.
I'm of the view that it's not about Trent, it's about the fans - well, frankly, ME.
If anyone could match Broad under lights it would have been Trent. And, frankly, after the Justin Vaughan debacle that deprived me of a significant portion of Shane Bond, this would be but a small repayment of the debt they owe me!!!
Yes, he should have asked, IMO.
I don't think we should be precious about other people paying our players salaries.
But, I reckon it would gave been a no.
I just dont think he's keen, on tests anymore.
And from the comments on here, I just dont think people have clicked that hes not really a freelancer . Being a cricket freelancer is actually a pretty shit gig, with no to little access to coaches, insurance, fitness coaches, medical etc. That is not Trent's situation. Trent is employed by his IPL franchise who own teams in about 5 leagues , therefore it is worthwhile for them to employ him directly and provide the type of in-house service like I listed above. Even if Trent wanted to play he would gave needed approval from his coach, and GM.
I think they (Stead, Larsen) would have needed answers / certainty quicker than what Boult could have given them. Assuming he even wanted to play.
I definitely think it would have been worth exploring this avenue for the second test , though.
(Edit. This is just my reading of the situation. I dont claim any inside knowledge on Boult's contract)
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@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps v England:
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
poor Gary cattle less Stead - he has 3 of the 6 test batsmen averaging 50+, a keeper averaging 45 and an opener averaging 40+ we are at least 3x worse than when Hesson was coach, despite NZ's batting unit being currently of unprecedented caliber...
We have a top order averaging 55, 42, 54, 40, 58, 45, Mike Hesson would've given his right arm for a batting unit of that strength.
I think it's probably time to move on from Stead but I am not sure getting rid of him will solve too many problems. Probably half that team is a big step down on what we had a few years ago and as far as I have seen there are no players screaming out that they are going to be any better. Any player changes is just shuffling the deck chairs.
I also think it is time to move on from Stead. But, I also don't really put any blame at his door. Well, not with any certainty,. It is hard to gauge the impacts of a head coach, but I think we can assess Stead as a reasonable coach of a high performing team. But it is probably getting stale. Maybe there are better out there, also some worse. But captains and team culture play as big or bigger role.
The thing is, the decline shouldn't be happening yet.
We will gave a tough few years ahead, because the next generation isnt a patch on what we've had the last 10 years.
But, not yet.
We had 4 old players ar time of WTC win that we knew were retiring or would be soon.
We've phased out 3 of our 4 old players. And 2 of those replacements are huge improvements on the recent years form (declining powers) of those they replaced.
We aren't suffering the personnel crisis yet. Apart from Kane missing much of last year, and now Boult from now on.
We should still be experiencing the good times at the moment, with the hangover still to come. But we've been shit for our last 11 tests.
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@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps v England:
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
poor Gary cattle less Stead - he has 3 of the 6 test batsmen averaging 50+, a keeper averaging 45 and an opener averaging 40+ we are at least 3x worse than when Hesson was coach, despite NZ's batting unit being currently of unprecedented caliber...
We have a top order averaging 55, 42, 54, 40, 58, 45, Mike Hesson would've given his right arm for a batting unit of that strength.
I think it's probably time to move on from Stead but I am not sure getting rid of him will solve too many problems. Probably half that team is a big step down on what we had a few years ago and as far as I have seen there are no players screaming out that they are going to be any better. Any player changes is just shuffling the deck chairs.
I also think it is time to move on from Stead. But, I also don't really put any blame at his door. Well, not with any certainty,. It is hard to gauge the impacts of a head coach, but I think we can assess Stead as a reasonable coach of a high performing team. But it is probably getting stale. Maybe there are better out there, also some worse. But captains and team culture play as big or bigger role.
The thing is, the decline shouldn't be happening yet.
We will gave a tough few years ahead, because the next generation isnt a patch on what we've had the last 10 years.
But, not yet.
We had 4 old players ar time of WTC win that we knew were retiring or would be soon.
We've phased out 3 of our 4 old players. And 2 of those replacements are huge improvements on the recent years form (declining powers) of those they replaced.
We aren't suffering the personnel crisis yet. Apart from Kane missing much of last year, and now Boult from now on.
We should still be experiencing the good times at the moment, with the hangover still to come. But we've been shit for our last 11 tests.
The players have to take responsibility for the last batting performance and some others I have seen
When the batsmen cross the boundary line they take ownership of a lack of application, making poor quite lazy decisions and a lack of Fight.
The coach does not cross that boundary and bat for or with the batsmen if they do not take on board the mistakes they made but deflect elsewhere then you have the wrong players in your team.
I saw a real lack of wanting to do the hard yards in this test and some others by the players.
Maybe it is time to move on Gary Stead and a new voice, ideas and enthusiasm may help.
But the blame lays mostly on the players for the efforts they put in. -
@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:
caps used to feed off Kane. There was the confidence that one guy was going to do well and they could play around that.
Kanes form issues are a big part in the confidence of the team.Yeah I was going to post something similar. Kane has struggled by his standards the last year or two and the decline in team performance seems to have occurred during the same time frame.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps v England:
@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:
caps used to feed off Kane. There was the confidence that one guy was going to do well and they could play around that.
Kanes form issues are a big part in the confidence of the team.Yeah I was going to post something similar. Kane has struggled by his standards the last year or two and the decline in team performance seems to have occurred during the same time frame.
Rossco was a big loss, Conway is our best bat now but we don't have the consistent performers that we used to have
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@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
I don't like day/night test cricket for many reasons, and the latest test hasn't really changed my opinion.
I've had fairy mixed feelings about it, but this time around the evening session was the difference between me making it to the ground on three out of the four days, or otherwise not at all. So I'll have to admit to liking it now
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It was a wow atmosphere there. Best test cricket crowd I have been in in NZ. But we ended up batting at the trickiest times and England bowled expertly to exploit that.
I think a lot of the comments on nz players and coach are a bit harsh. The bowling outside of Wagner was tidy. But I get that we were trying to buy the wickets while they kept hooking and pulling big. Given how hard they attacked it was amazing England did not give a lot more chances given that NZ had several players in catching spots.
Sorry that Boult was missing but that was decided and prepared for many months ago. It's not like they just decided to drop him.
The sharpness of the seam from Broad was quite amazing. I get the feeling that the pink ball enhanced the movement and our batsmen struggled to adjust.
Blundell and Mitchell batted well with the tail enders and Conway had a very good knock.
The crowd enjoyed the attitude from England. You can still enjoy it when your team is well beaten. And we saw a kiwi born player get the all time record for test sixes!
@Donsteppa you are right. I think they missed a trick last night in not cutting the entry price for today. But I guess most tickets are presold for a weekend... The match should have started Friday in my view. -
When Anderson and Broad get to take the new pink ball up under lights twice in a test, then we are really up against it no matter what else happens. That's partly our fault for inexplicably choosing to bowl first (WTF?), but there's also an element of luck for them there which gave those two bowlers a big leg up, which given their class they really didn't need. I don't like day/night tests for that reason.
We had one crack under lights, and the difference in class of the bowlers was pretty apparent. Southee was good and a little unlucky, but runs were just leaking at the other end. Too short, too wide, just crap being served up too often which meant England could score freely despite losing a couple of wickets. That was the most disappointing part of the whole test for me, it was our chance to really get ahead in the game and we just squandered it. If that was Southee and Boult opening then things would have looked very different, you can't bazball your way out of those two swinging it round corners in tandem.
We still have a good team, and if we can get Henry back opening with Southee that will test the English openers a lot more which should make a big difference. Wags can then go back to being first or second change where he thrives.
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I’m not so sure luck played such a big part. I reckon Stokes would have batted first if he’d won the toss with the plan being score big(ish) but score quickly, then get the opposition batting under the lights. A good aggressive plan that was executed very well. Thereafter England were more or less in control of their own destiny.
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@No-Quarter said in Black Caps v England:
We still have a good team
Winless from our last 7 tests would suggest otherwise.
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@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v England:
@No-Quarter said in Black Caps v England:
We still have a good team
Winless from our last 7 tests would suggest otherwise.
Yep stats don't back that up at all.
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@Catogrande oh yeah Stokes would have 100% batted first, it's win win. Get bowled out on the first day and you get to take the new ball under lights, if you don't then you're well ahead of the game anyway. Bowling first was an idiotic decision from Southee that put us on the back foot from the get go. The fact remains that there's still an element of luck when it comes to the new ball/lights combination. We got lucky once and squandered it as I say, so not taking away from England in that match, but was making the point that I dislike the day/night tests as they can be turned on their head because of that.
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@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v England:
@No-Quarter said in Black Caps v England:
We still have a good team
Winless from our last 7 tests would suggest otherwise.
We definitely need a shake up, we should be doing better than recent results with the talent we still have at our disposal. It's been a disappointing run of results but I think we can turn it around. I was annoyed that the first test was day/night, they need to be scrapped.
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Ah! Understand a bit better now. Nuance in the written word is sometimes difficult to see.
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@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
poor Gary cattle less Stead - he has 3 of the 6 test batsmen averaging 50+, a keeper averaging 45 and an opener averaging 40+ we are like 3x worse than when Hesson was coach, yet NZ's top order have crazy good averages.
We have a top order averaging 55, 42, 54, 40, 58, 45, Mike Hesson would've given his right arm for a batting unit of that strength...
They are hardly living up to their averages are they,Pathetic batting.
That was a batting clown show I see better batting here in 2nd grade club.Adding to that Hesson actually won nothing no titles as Black Cap Coach and he had Williamson and Taylor 2 of the best batsmen we have ever produced.
At least Stead can retire as the only Black Caps Coach to win a World Title.
And if you believe people he did it with Nicholls who is shit and Latham who cant score runs against the big teams.Chris, I know you will never have a bad word to say about Stead as he's from Canterbury.
This is the most poorly coached Blackcaps side I've seen.
I believe previous coaches Hesson, Wright, Bracewell, Moles, Trist, Aberhart, etc.. when considering context (not just purely results) did comparatively better with worse teams than Stead.
Even when we had a team of literal nobodies except Taylor we at least did things tactically to gain an advantage, we could often play above ourselves due to resourceful tactics - Fleming used to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. We still managed to be competitive despite very limited resources. Under Stead we've had close to world-class batting and bowling unit for the 1st time & we don't even compete with top sides unless literally everything is lined-up in our favor.
Stead is the worst coach we've had, and I stand by that.
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@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
poor Gary cattle less Stead - he has 3 of the 6 test batsmen averaging 50+, a keeper averaging 45 and an opener averaging 40+ we are like 3x worse than when Hesson was coach, yet NZ's top order have crazy good averages.
We have a top order averaging 55, 42, 54, 40, 58, 45, Mike Hesson would've given his right arm for a batting unit of that strength...
They are hardly living up to their averages are they,Pathetic batting.
That was a batting clown show I see better batting here in 2nd grade club.Adding to that Hesson actually won nothing no titles as Black Cap Coach and he had Williamson and Taylor 2 of the best batsmen we have ever produced.
At least Stead can retire as the only Black Caps Coach to win a World Title.
And if you believe people he did it with Nicholls who is shit and Latham who cant score runs against the big teams.Chris, I know you will never have a bad word to say about Stead as he's from Canterbury.
This is the most poorly coached Blackcaps side I've seen.
I believe previous coaches Hesson, Wright, Bracewell, Moles, Trist, Aberhart, etc.. when considering context (not just purely results) did comparatively better with worse teams than Stead.
Even when we had a team of literal nobodies except Taylor we at least did things tactically to gain an advantage, we could often play above ourselves due to resourceful tactics - Fleming used to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. We still managed to be competitive despite very limited resources. Under Stead we had close to world-class batting and bowling unit for the 1st time & we don't even compete with top sides unless literally everything is lined-up in our favor.
Stead is the worst coach we've had, and I stand by that.
You are allowed to have an opinion and some I don’t disagree with,I believe it is time for a change and a new voice,
But the players need to take responsibility for their performances on the field or no matter who the coach is we will get the same results.
As a coach the first players you drop are the ones who deflect from their own performances as they will never learn and ruin the team culture.
I want to see players stand up and own their bad performances not blame others for their poor judgement, lack of fight and it seems bad preparation leading to the bad performances.
Cricket is different from other team sports it is individual performances within a team enviroment.
Players need to stand up and deliver for what they are paid for.
Not treat cricket like a joke, I was embarrassed by that result and I want to see the players own it.
And looking at the talent coming through after watching the domestic scene in NZ this season it is in a terrible state with a lot of pain to come. -
I went on Saturday and the NZ bowling display was embarrassingly bad for a test match. Wagner kept bowling those medium pace half trackers and England were just deciding where to hit them, moving to one side of the wicket or the other. The runs leaked so fast, the game was pretty much over by the first break.
Explain this to me - why does Wagner bowl EVERY ball short. In T20 you don't bowl the same ball all the time and if the batsman is premeditating backing away and hitting you over mid-off, surely you have to bowl some variation. The bowler whose name begins with K must never play test cricket again, he just sprays it around.
Top bowling by Broad under the lights. hitting a beautiful length, cutting it in and hitting the stumps against the best batsmen that NZ has.
