All Blacks 2023
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
That's a great post, a minority viewpoint but buttressed by point-by-point facts, and then out of nowhere springs gratuitous, comic abuse.
You are now the gold standard in TSF rugby-related posts as far as I'm concerned. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
A new AB coach who had been an assistant AB coach before, should have some idea?
Oh, Ian Foster.Wrong thread.
This thread title says "All Blacks 2023" not "All Blacks 2024". Somehow, despite his apparent faults, I think the AB 2023 head coach is related.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
That's a great post, a minority viewpoint but buttressed by point-by-point facts, and then out of nowhere springs gratuitous, comic abuse.
You are now the gold standard in TSF rugby-related posts as far as I'm concerned.No-one's wanted the gold standard since the 1930s.
It's the gratuitous abuse that sets the standard!
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B Sadly you're correct, he's our best 10. Apart from OZ, I'd take any other Tier 1 top #10 instead, if I had the choice
I honestly wouldn't.
Put Richie in the Ireland set-up and I reckon we'd be fucked. He can do everything Sexton does and more. Our coaches need to meet the Ireland mark.
I occasionally try to watch Ntamack but he never seems to be playing. My fault.
I would not take Handre ahead of Richie!!!!! !!!!! a few more !!! for good measure.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B Sadly you're correct, he's our best 10. Apart from OZ, I'd take any other Tier 1 top #10 instead, if I had the choice
I honestly wouldn't.
Put Richie in the Ireland set-up and I reckon we'd be fucked. He can do everything Sexton does and more. Our coaches need to meet the Ireland mark.
I occasionally try to watch Ntamack but he never seems to be playing. My fault.
I would not take Handre ahead of Richie!!!!! !!!!! a few more !!! for good measure.
I would because all of them can control a test, I've seen them do it, but I've not seen Richie do that ever in a tough test. And when it comes to the knockouts, that's what matters. He hasn't got that skill, Handre does, Sexton, Farrell. But none of the current NZ 10s do, they are game breakers and wizards, not 10s that can grab the game by the scruff of the neck and sort it. Aaron Smith did, once test 1 Lions, so maybe he can? But that powder is so dry it is ridiculous
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B Sadly you're correct, he's our best 10. Apart from OZ, I'd take any other Tier 1 top #10 instead, if I had the choice
I honestly wouldn't.
Put Richie in the Ireland set-up and I reckon we'd be fucked. He can do everything Sexton does and more. Our coaches need to meet the Ireland mark.
I occasionally try to watch Ntamack but he never seems to be playing. My fault.
I would not take Handre ahead of Richie!!!!! !!!!! a few more !!! for good measure.
I would because all of them can control a test, I've seen them do it, but I've not seen Richie do that ever in a tough test. And when it comes to the knockouts, that's what matters. He hasn't got that skill, Handre does, Sexton, Farrell. But none of the current NZ 10s do, they are game breakers and wizards, not 10s that can grab the game by the scruff of the neck and sort it. Aaron Smith did, once test 1 Lions, so maybe he can? But that powder is so dry it is ridiculous
Have a look at Handre's record.
He's lost three times vs Wales.
He's lost two-thirds of his games vs NZ and Australia (evenly distributed)
Report back to me.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B Sadly you're correct, he's our best 10. Apart from OZ, I'd take any other Tier 1 top #10 instead, if I had the choice
I honestly wouldn't.
Put Richie in the Ireland set-up and I reckon we'd be fucked. He can do everything Sexton does and more. Our coaches need to meet the Ireland mark.
I occasionally try to watch Ntamack but he never seems to be playing. My fault.
I would not take Handre ahead of Richie!!!!! !!!!! a few more !!! for good measure.
I would because all of them can control a test, I've seen them do it, but I've not seen Richie do that ever in a tough test. And when it comes to the knockouts, that's what matters. He hasn't got that skill, Handre does, Sexton, Farrell. But none of the current NZ 10s do, they are game breakers and wizards, not 10s that can grab the game by the scruff of the neck and sort it. Aaron Smith did, once test 1 Lions, so maybe he can? But that powder is so dry it is ridiculous
Have a look at Handre's record.
He's lost three times vs Wales.
He's lost two-thirds of his games vs NZ and Australia (evenly distributed)
Report back to me.
And? He still can control a game at test level, Richie can't. He can break a game open, but not control. Not when his team is struggling. I'm not saying the other tens always do that. But that they have, Richie never has. And under Fosters embarrassing reign he's had a lot of opportunities to grip a test. He never has. Neither has BB, so we've not much choice but both are flash harries, not DC style controllers - a requirement for winning the big games
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If Richie could defend like this I would be alot happier
What's Richie good at? And why is he one of the best Super players I've watched? Because he shreds fragmented defenses, especially 2 passes wide and on the counter.
If we want to get the best of him therefore we need a 12 that terrifies defenses
And a pack full of big munter ball runners. To get teams on the back footSo what do we pick?
Savea who is best wider.
Cane who can't run the ball
Barrett or fucking Frizzell
Whitelock and Retallick.What Richie isn't good at is keeping the ball in front of his forwards. Terrorising inside channels. Field kicking. Being confronted by organised defenses constantly coming forward.
We pick teams that seem to lead to this situation and then hope we can go around them -
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B Sadly you're correct, he's our best 10. Apart from OZ, I'd take any other Tier 1 top #10 instead, if I had the choice
I honestly wouldn't.
Put Richie in the Ireland set-up and I reckon we'd be fucked. He can do everything Sexton does and more. Our coaches need to meet the Ireland mark.
I occasionally try to watch Ntamack but he never seems to be playing. My fault.
I would not take Handre ahead of Richie!!!!! !!!!! a few more !!! for good measure.
I would because all of them can control a test, I've seen them do it, but I've not seen Richie do that ever in a tough test. And when it comes to the knockouts, that's what matters. He hasn't got that skill, Handre does, Sexton, Farrell. But none of the current NZ 10s do, they are game breakers and wizards, not 10s that can grab the game by the scruff of the neck and sort it. Aaron Smith did, once test 1 Lions, so maybe he can? But that powder is so dry it is ridiculous
Have a look at Handre's record.
He's lost three times vs Wales.
He's lost two-thirds of his games vs NZ and Australia (evenly distributed)
Report back to me.
And? He still can control a game at test level, Richie can't. He can break a game open, but not control. Not when his team is struggling. I'm not saying the other tens always do that. But that they have, Richie never has. And under Fosters embarrassing reign he's had a lot of opportunities to grip a test. He never has. Neither has BB, so we've not much choice but both are flash harries, not DC style controllers - a requirement for winning the big games
You didn't look at his record before reporting back, did you?
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@mariner4life To be fair to Richie, who I actually think should/will be our 10 at WC, I think there is a simpler thing he needs than changing all the players around him to be at his best, he just needs Super rugby level defence!!
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
That is why you create live depth charts right down to your u/16s, to understand what your depth is to sustain the game plan you develop, its basic coaching strategy,and wether you have the depth for tweaks you need when variables come along.
I really don't think you can expect a AB Coach - before he's even got the job remember - to produce a winning game plan based on live depth charts down to U16 level that he's developed, and then judge him on the success of that self-same game-plan.
The world just doesn't work like that, sadly.
You know that the game plan doesn’t totally come from depth charts.
It is a tool to understand if you have the players to implement and sustain your game plan.Plus how much depth at different abilities you have and have coming though to keep on top of the changes you always need to freshen your game plan.
You start with a game plan and tweak it as you hit variables coming at you from the opposition and internally.
But if you don’t know the players abilities,current form,ability under pressure,work ethic,ability to fit into culture,how they take on board coaching advice, likely future development you are stuck at sea and are guessing and hoping it all comes together.I am sure you are well aware of all of that,but you want to come from one certain angle so it does not suit your argument.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
That is why you create live depth charts right down to your u/16s, to understand what your depth is to sustain the game plan you develop, its basic coaching strategy,and wether you have the depth for tweaks you need when variables come along.
I really don't think you can expect a AB Coach - before he's even got the job remember - to produce a winning game plan based on live depth charts down to U16 level that he's developed, and then judge him on the success of that self-same game-plan.
The world just doesn't work like that, sadly.
You know that the game plan doesn’t totally come from depth charts.
It is a tool to understand if you have the players to implement and sustain your game plan.Plus how much depth at different abilities you have and have coming though to keep on top of the changes you always need to freshen your game plan.
You start with a game plan and tweak it as you hit variables coming at you from the opposition and internally.
But if you don’t know the players abilities,current form,ability under pressure,work ethic,ability to fit into culture,how they take on board coaching advice, likely future development you are stuck at sea and are guessing and hoping it all comes together.I am sure you are well aware of all of that,but you want to come from one certain angle so it does not suit your argument.
Pretty sure that depth plan alignment with strategy is the reason why we see some players pulled into the set up ahead of others that are arguably better.
It's not just a case of being better it is whether you either have, or have the forseen ability, to play a certain way.Take halfback as an example. Let's say that the strategy/game plans are based around a speed to clear the ball and nothing else. Player Cs USP is a little different, they are an extra loosie type halfback that directs play off hand and boot and has an eye to get over the advantage line. Very effective, and shining at another level, but may not fit the role being planned for.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
If they can not achieve that, why are they being paid to be AB coach.
Because no AB coach can sit down - before taking the job on - and 100% predict or control injuries, the quality of the players available to him for his chosen game plan, nor the quality and ability of the opposition to come up with a better game plan, perhaps?
That is why you create live depth charts right down to your u/16s, to understand what your depth is to sustain the game plan you develop, its basic coaching strategy,and wether you have the depth for tweaks you need when variables come along.
I really don't think you can expect a AB Coach - before he's even got the job remember - to produce a winning game plan based on live depth charts down to U16 level that he's developed, and then judge him on the success of that self-same game-plan.
The world just doesn't work like that, sadly.
You know that the game plan doesn’t totally come from depth charts.
It is a tool to understand if you have the players to implement and sustain your game plan.Plus how much depth at different abilities you have and have coming though to keep on top of the changes you always need to freshen your game plan.
You start with a game plan and tweak it as you hit variables coming at you from the opposition and internally.
But if you don’t know the players abilities,current form,ability under pressure,work ethic,ability to fit into culture,how they take on board coaching advice, likely future development you are stuck at sea and are guessing and hoping it all comes together.I am sure you are well aware of all of that,but you want to come from one certain angle so it does not suit your argument.
Pretty sure that depth plan alignment with strategy is the reason why we see some players pulled into the set up ahead of others that are arguably better.
It's not just a case of being better it is whether you either have, or have the forseen ability, to play a certain way.Take halfback as an example. Let's say that the strategy/game plans are based around a speed to clear the ball and nothing else. Player Cs USP is a little different, they are an extra loosie type halfback that directs play off hand and boot and has an eye to get over the advantage line. Very effective, and shining at another level, but may not fit the role being planned for.
100 % agree with you you can see it mapped out.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
I'm going to start by quoting an un-named journo* on Richie. "The finest Super Rugby player of all time"!
I think he's right -I think you are very blinkered in what you draw beyond this. There is much more to being a test 10 and I have yet to see it delivered consistently. My biggest concern is that his test level weaknesses do not seem to be improving and can be targeted by good opposition. Not sure he is our best rwc starting candidate yet unless he tightens up his play and seeks constant control over opportunism.
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@ARHS said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
I'm going to start by quoting an un-named journo* on Richie. "The finest Super Rugby player of all time"!
I think he's right -I think you are very blinkered in what you draw beyond this. There is much more to being a test 10 and I have yet to see it delivered consistently. My biggest concern is that his test level weaknesses do not seem to be improving and can be targeted by good opposition. Not sure he is our best rwc starting candidate yet unless he tightens up his play and seeks constant control over opportunism.
Last RWC it was a massive coaching mistake to think they could hide him on defence. It provided a target for others to exploit. I think his defence has improved since then but there will still be patterns in his play and decision making that good coaches will be building plans around.
He's not entirely a front foot player but (like BB) his positive abilities are just about all when on the front foot. -
@Crucial yeah, rugby isn't like some sports where there are places you can hide, in AFL they often talk about have a rest up front, but attack can come from anywhere in rugby...the closest thing to somewhere you could rest on D is standing directly behind someone like Kino
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No doubt @Chris-B is over-egging Mo'unga, probably to counter my negativity towards him, the truth probably lies somewhere in between. At the moment I have him alongside someone like Adam Thomson, a super star at Super level, but a lightweight at test level.
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An article in the ODT earlier this year called him the Graeme Hick of rugby
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@No-Quarter i think that's the hardest thing for people to understand, being great at super rugby doesn't mean theyre be great at international, the true greats lift their game in the black jersey...but lots just show they were already playing at the top of their game
