ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?
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@Kirwan said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Lol, the rose tinted glasses on players like Mounga and even worse Frizzell. We don't need them, they can have their payday.
If Dmac is going overseas because Razor is luring Mounga back that is criminal.
As for picking overseas players, that would kill the game in NZ. Awful idea.
This talk is starting because we are in a down period. I agree, don't look backwards look forwards. Find and develop the next group of young ABs to take us through the next 4 years and the talk should quiet down. The only way I would be happy with letting players leave and still play is some form of 50 test dispensation
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@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster Smith is still good enough I'd bet to bring off the bench to close out a game.
Over the next 12-18 months, he could pass on his experience and mentor the new long term 9s. Same goes for Retallick.
TKB is still plenty good enough for the ABs. Frizell too (unless he has had the mother of all drop offs).
Let the man retire at the age of 35!
TKB was barely good enough when he was in the ABs 10 years.
I can't work out which is the stupidest comment, this one, or @stodders one about Frizell.
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i cant believe how often im seeing suggestions of bring frizell back....i was once the biggest frizell apologist (as far as rugby) and coped a lot of flak...and even i have long ago realised he just didnt step up in his many chances in the black jersey.....
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I dont think it's players leaving that's hurting NZ rugby at the top flight as the vast majority of the best players are still playing in NZ. You could argue Mounga and Frizzel and you could also argue that they wouldn't make much of a difference to the current team anyway.
What I really think is hurting NZ rugby is the loss of coaching IP, Joseph, Brown, Renee, Schmidt and a whole pile of others, whilst our systems are set up to retain our playing talent there seems little set up to retain our coaching talent.
Longer term maybe we have to and again in my mind it would be due to the IP gain we could get instead of being NZ isolated. Players experiencing different coach's, training methods, ways of playing and bringing that back to NZ so we can pick up the best of it and review how we operate maybe the biggest gain.
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It would be interesting to know what the gap is in coaching salaries for Super vs elsewhere: limited number of spots available, so making them better paid might actually be an option.
I'm on board with preferring to have a couple of Tony Brown, Dave Rennie, Joseph, Schmidt, Cotter in NZ rather than Mo'unga and Frizzell. -
If Brown could have been an assistant AB coach and no one bothered to contact him, I'm going to be a little upset
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@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
So, how long before the NZRU fold on the overseas player rule? IMO, I think the winds are blowing that way. If mismanaged it will have profound impacts on NZ rugby. But NZ rugby is suffering death by a thousand cuts.
Japan is the key for me. A good number of the top Boks are playing there. If ABs see the Bok physicality as the benchmark, mixing with these players in Japan will be of benefit to NZ players.
I know there are drop offs for NZ players when returning to NZ from Japan. However, the more top players are drawn there, the less this will be the case.
The question will be what will the NZ competitions become if the top players don’t play in NZ that much, if at all, outside of the test windows? Would NZ fans accept such a huge change if it meant the ABs returned to the top of the tree by having their best players available to select from at all times?
Tricky times await
Up to now, there would only really be a few overseas players that would enhance an ABs squad.
If we did change the eligibility criteria, I hope it would be for a couple of spots in an AB squad and not make it open season to be selected from anywhere.
So in the current squad we could have called in Mounga and Retellick for example. That’s it.
A slight tweak doesn’t have to mean that players leave en masse
The floodgates would open. You can't implement a half pregnant solution like Australia tried.
It's up to the All Black coaches to not be useless and tell upcoming players what they need to work on to have their dreams realized. We're always going to lose talent because we produce a higher percentage of quality players, the trick is to keep the best ones.
The real underlying issue is to make sure we have the preeminent domestic competition to develop players.
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The longer NZ wait to select overseas players, the further they will stay behind the Springboks.
The best Springboks play in Japan. The lighter responsibility and physical demand on their bodies give them a longer playing lifespan.
According to Damian de Ellende.
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@OomPB we let outstanding All Blacks play in Japan. We send them the world player of the year and get back whatever Ardie currently is.
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@antipodean I've upvoted your post due to the wit in it alone.
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The URC/HC season starts now and end in June, when the CC starts and end September. The Japan Springboks have a much shorter season and is available for the Springboks. Our coaches have to plan player management well. The players must get a 8 week break in a year from rugby.
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@antipodean we have Kolbey, Am, Kriel, de Ellende,
Faf, Wiese, Lood, Mostert, Kwagga , PSdT and Marx playing in Japan.Take them out of the Springboks squad and we will struggle.
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@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@antipodean we have Am, Kriel, de Ellende,
Faf, Wiese, Lood, Mostert, Kwagga , PSdT and Marx playing in Japan.Take them out of the Springboks squad and we will struggle.
Forgive my ignorance, but do they play the full Japanese Top League season? What other domestic rugby do they play to get up to Test standard?
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@antipodean they went through our structures but end up in Japan, earning top money and play for their country.
Our structures will never change. Youngsters like SMZ and BJD played CC last year.
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@Windows97 I am just trying to paint the Springboks picture. Sorry if it upset you.
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@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@antipodean they went through our structures but end up in Japan, earning top money and play for their country.
Our structures will never change. Youngsters like SMZ and BJD played CC last year.
I think that may be the difference in that our pathways aren't a like. There's considerable discussion around the demise of the NPC and our reliance on Super Rugby which is effectively four NZ teams versus the Brumbies.
Hopefully the demise of the Rebels and strengthening of the Reds and Tahs bolsters the competition, but I feel we can't follow SA when the foundations aren't the same.
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I think the players should be allowed to go out and earn what they are worth. The current NZR position is a restraint on their trade.
Super Rugby is not the competition it was. Allowing more players to play in the big European leagues would give them more experience of playing in high pressure, close games in front of big crowds.
Argentina are world football champions despite (or perhaps because of) most of their players playing club football in Europe. A lot of the Springbok squad play outside South Africa.
I think a lot of players would stay in New Zealand for lifestyle reasons so they'd still be stars in Super Rugby and the NPC.
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@sparky there's no restraint on their trade; they're free to play their trade anywhere.
