ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?
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@mariner4life said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Chris said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@SBW1 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Chris With the Silverlake money being injected in the game, I wonder if this could have any effect on attracting more players coming back or whether it will be more to boosting the young ones coming through.
I hope it is spread across the board,I don't know wether it will attract more players coming back,I think end of overseas contracts,Family and lifestyle will bring them back if anything,Hard to compete with the money on offer overseas.
who would we want back? Use it on the future, not the now. And don't spunk it on player salaries, spend it on infrastructure and pathways.
No one I would want back,Just commenting on what would bring them. back.
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@ARHS said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@SBW1 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Dan54 Love to get the stats on where Kiwis are plying their trade for overseas clubs. Must be a significant number in US now. Even the Aussie super clubs and Drua have a significant Kiwi presence in coaching and player.
Around 90 nz origin players signed up for MLR last year. Some were short term. Over 100 with Japanese clubs.
Funnilyenough Japanese rugby not too bad for ITM cup players, as they can/do play both when they want, haven't checked but MLR maybe same? I know Jesse Parete for the Naki has been in Japan and still plays in ITM cup, a couple of years back he played the last 3 club games too. To be honest a lot of players actually go overseas not just for coin but for lifestyle change like the young fellas that do the old OE. MLR isn't enough cash to attract Super players, just Japan and Europe I think.
Whoops sorry to Stargazer, just realised I have said same as you after I had already replied.
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@SBW1 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Chris With the Silverlake money being injected in the game, I wonder if this could have any effect on attracting more players coming back or whether it will be more to boosting the young ones coming through.
Silverlake money that is going to provinces has been more or less gone with a proviso it's to boost club/lower grade rugby, and not really to be spent on player salaries. I assume at top level it will pad test players pay, but they pretty firm on it not getting wasted. And rightfully so to I reckon.
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So, how long before the NZRU fold on the overseas player rule? IMO, I think the winds are blowing that way. If mismanaged it will have profound impacts on NZ rugby. But NZ rugby is suffering death by a thousand cuts.
Japan is the key for me. A good number of the top Boks are playing there. If ABs see the Bok physicality as the benchmark, mixing with these players in Japan will be of benefit to NZ players.
I know there are drop offs for NZ players when returning to NZ from Japan. However, the more top players are drawn there, the less this will be the case.
The question will be what will the NZ competitions become if the top players don’t play in NZ that much, if at all, outside of the test windows? Would NZ fans accept such a huge change if it meant the ABs returned to the top of the tree by having their best players available to select from at all times?
Tricky times await
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@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
So, how long before the NZRU fold on the overseas player rule? IMO, I think the winds are blowing that way. If mismanaged it will have profound impacts on NZ rugby. But NZ rugby is suffering death by a thousand cuts.
Japan is the key for me. A good number of the top Boks are playing there. If ABs see the Bok physicality as the benchmark, mixing with these players in Japan will be of benefit to NZ players.
I know there are drop offs for NZ players when returning to NZ from Japan. However, the more top players are drawn there, the less this will be the case.
The question will be what will the NZ competitions become if the top players don’t play in NZ that much, if at all, outside of the test windows? Would NZ fans accept such a huge change if it meant the ABs returned to the top of the tree by having their best players available to select from at all times?
Tricky times await
Up to now, there would only really be a few overseas players that would enhance an ABs squad.
If we did change the eligibility criteria, I hope it would be for a couple of spots in an AB squad and not make it open season to be selected from anywhere.
So in the current squad we could have called in Mounga and Retellick for example. That’s it.
A slight tweak doesn’t have to mean that players leave en masse
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@DaGrubster Retallick, Frizell, Mo'unga, TKB, Smith, Sopoaga. Someone like Pita Ahki would have probably represented NZ rather than choosing Tonga.
There aren't that many top names plying their trade abroad, but looking at the above, you could form a pretty strong, experienced bench who could score at least 3 points in the last 20 mins
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@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster Retallick, Frizell, Mo'unga, TKB, Smith, Sopoaga. Someone like Pita Ahki would have probably represented NZ rather than choosing Tonga.
There aren't that many top names plying their trade abroad, but looking at the above, you could form a pretty strong, experienced bench who could score at least 3 points in the last 20 mins
Some of those players are not AB standard anymore.
Retallick, Frizzel, Mounga. Smith would all be playing if in NZ although Smith is at an age where he would have retired as he is 36 in a few months.
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@DaGrubster Smith is still good enough I'd bet to bring off the bench to close out a game.
Over the next 12-18 months, he could pass on his experience and mentor the new long term 9s. Same goes for Retallick.
TKB is still plenty good enough for the ABs. Frizell too (unless he has had the mother of all drop offs).
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The issue is that there's been a lack of succession planning combined with some bad luck.
Aaron Smith was the only halfback retiring at the end of last season. NZ should have come into the campaign with two moderately experienced halfbacks and one newbie but Cam Roigard is injured and Finlay Christie was never up to standard.
At lock, two international players in Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retallick departed. The first-choice combo of Scott Barrett and Tupou Vaa'i should have had plenty of experience but Foster never gave Vaa'i appropriate minutes. Josh Lord, the next cab off the ranks, has had a slew of injuries.
It's a similar story across the board. At a certain point in time, guys are always going to retire - whether that's when they leave NZ at 35 or hang around for a few years more. The important thing is that there are people ready to step into their shoes when they do eventually go. It's not like Foster didn't have time to develop new talent, but he was always facing must-win situations due to his less than convincing coaching.
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@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster Smith is still good enough I'd bet to bring off the bench to close out a game.
Over the next 12-18 months, he could pass on his experience and mentor the new long term 9s. Same goes for Retallick.
TKB is still plenty good enough for the ABs. Frizell too (unless he has had the mother of all drop offs).
Let the man retire at the age of 35!
TKB was barely good enough when he was in the ABs 10 years.
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@DaGrubster he’s been one of the best SHs in Europe for the last few years playing for La Rochelle. O’Gara thinks highly of him 😬
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@Chris said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Nepia said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
I'm still in the don't pick overseas players camp. Any time we discuss this I usually come to the conclusion that barely any currently overseas players will get picked anyway.
Yep Me too,I would hate to see the weakening of our domestic competition's even more than has already happened.
I think it’s almost as important to keep as many good coaches as we can in NZ. The likes of Tony Brown, Joseph et al
Seeing your I.P in the opposition coaching box is just ridiculous and perverse to me.
Fair enough if you’re coaching a club.
But at international level it just stinks.
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@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster he’s been one of the best SHs in Europe for the last few years playing for La Rochelle. O’Gara thinks highly of him 😬
I have heard he has played very well but I don’t watch European club rugby so don’t get to watch him.
Another case of a player improving after coming to play in Europe…?
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@Jet said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Chris said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Nepia said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
I'm still in the don't pick overseas players camp. Any time we discuss this I usually come to the conclusion that barely any currently overseas players will get picked anyway.
Yep Me too,I would hate to see the weakening of our domestic competition's even more than has already happened.
I think it’s almost as important to keep as many good coaches as we can in NZ. The likes of Tony Brown, Joseph et al
Seeing your I.P in the opposition coaching box is just ridiculous and perverse to me.
Fair enough if you’re coaching a club.
But at international level it just stinks.
How? Pay them to not coach? Have three times as many coaches in the abs? It's just not possible and a pipe dream
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@Jet said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Chris said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Nepia said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
I'm still in the don't pick overseas players camp. Any time we discuss this I usually come to the conclusion that barely any currently overseas players will get picked anyway.
Yep Me too,I would hate to see the weakening of our domestic competition's even more than has already happened.
I think it’s almost as important to keep as many good coaches as we can in NZ. The likes of Tony Brown, Joseph et al
Seeing your I.P in the opposition coaching box is just ridiculous and perverse to me.
Fair enough if you’re coaching a club.
But at international level it just stinks.
It's a nice idea, but sadly in practice it doesn't work. There is only one HC gig in the ABs, so all the other guys who have coached at SR level who don't get the AB jobs inevitably leave. Assuming they wanted the jobs, the only way to keep guys like JJ, Brown, and Rennie would be to give them the assistant coaching jobs in the ABs setup
