ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?
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@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster Retallick, Frizell, Mo'unga, TKB, Smith, Sopoaga. Someone like Pita Ahki would have probably represented NZ rather than choosing Tonga.
There aren't that many top names plying their trade abroad, but looking at the above, you could form a pretty strong, experienced bench who could score at least 3 points in the last 20 mins
Some of those players are not AB standard anymore.
Retallick, Frizzel, Mounga. Smith would all be playing if in NZ although Smith is at an age where he would have retired as he is 36 in a few months.
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@DaGrubster Smith is still good enough I'd bet to bring off the bench to close out a game.
Over the next 12-18 months, he could pass on his experience and mentor the new long term 9s. Same goes for Retallick.
TKB is still plenty good enough for the ABs. Frizell too (unless he has had the mother of all drop offs).
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The issue is that there's been a lack of succession planning combined with some bad luck.
Aaron Smith was the only halfback retiring at the end of last season. NZ should have come into the campaign with two moderately experienced halfbacks and one newbie but Cam Roigard is injured and Finlay Christie was never up to standard.
At lock, two international players in Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retallick departed. The first-choice combo of Scott Barrett and Tupou Vaa'i should have had plenty of experience but Foster never gave Vaa'i appropriate minutes. Josh Lord, the next cab off the ranks, has had a slew of injuries.
It's a similar story across the board. At a certain point in time, guys are always going to retire - whether that's when they leave NZ at 35 or hang around for a few years more. The important thing is that there are people ready to step into their shoes when they do eventually go. It's not like Foster didn't have time to develop new talent, but he was always facing must-win situations due to his less than convincing coaching.
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@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster Smith is still good enough I'd bet to bring off the bench to close out a game.
Over the next 12-18 months, he could pass on his experience and mentor the new long term 9s. Same goes for Retallick.
TKB is still plenty good enough for the ABs. Frizell too (unless he has had the mother of all drop offs).
Let the man retire at the age of 35!
TKB was barely good enough when he was in the ABs 10 years.
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@DaGrubster he’s been one of the best SHs in Europe for the last few years playing for La Rochelle. O’Gara thinks highly of him 😬
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@Chris said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Nepia said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
I'm still in the don't pick overseas players camp. Any time we discuss this I usually come to the conclusion that barely any currently overseas players will get picked anyway.
Yep Me too,I would hate to see the weakening of our domestic competition's even more than has already happened.
I think it’s almost as important to keep as many good coaches as we can in NZ. The likes of Tony Brown, Joseph et al
Seeing your I.P in the opposition coaching box is just ridiculous and perverse to me.
Fair enough if you’re coaching a club.
But at international level it just stinks.
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@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster he’s been one of the best SHs in Europe for the last few years playing for La Rochelle. O’Gara thinks highly of him 😬
I have heard he has played very well but I don’t watch European club rugby so don’t get to watch him.
Another case of a player improving after coming to play in Europe…?
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@Jet said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Chris said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Nepia said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
I'm still in the don't pick overseas players camp. Any time we discuss this I usually come to the conclusion that barely any currently overseas players will get picked anyway.
Yep Me too,I would hate to see the weakening of our domestic competition's even more than has already happened.
I think it’s almost as important to keep as many good coaches as we can in NZ. The likes of Tony Brown, Joseph et al
Seeing your I.P in the opposition coaching box is just ridiculous and perverse to me.
Fair enough if you’re coaching a club.
But at international level it just stinks.
How? Pay them to not coach? Have three times as many coaches in the abs? It's just not possible and a pipe dream
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@Jet said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Chris said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Nepia said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
I'm still in the don't pick overseas players camp. Any time we discuss this I usually come to the conclusion that barely any currently overseas players will get picked anyway.
Yep Me too,I would hate to see the weakening of our domestic competition's even more than has already happened.
I think it’s almost as important to keep as many good coaches as we can in NZ. The likes of Tony Brown, Joseph et al
Seeing your I.P in the opposition coaching box is just ridiculous and perverse to me.
Fair enough if you’re coaching a club.
But at international level it just stinks.
It's a nice idea, but sadly in practice it doesn't work. There is only one HC gig in the ABs, so all the other guys who have coached at SR level who don't get the AB jobs inevitably leave. Assuming they wanted the jobs, the only way to keep guys like JJ, Brown, and Rennie would be to give them the assistant coaching jobs in the ABs setup
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@Winger said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
I am too. But if in the future 5+ players are good enough and NZ are losing lots of games with weak players and much better ones overseas then unsure if NZR will hold the line.
Fuck, didn't realise this was from January last year. (I landed on the OP.)
Been busily upvoting and was about to question Winger's return ...
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Lol, the rose tinted glasses on players like Mounga and even worse Frizzell. We don't need them, they can have their payday.
If Dmac is going overseas because Razor is luring Mounga back that is criminal.
As for picking overseas players, that would kill the game in NZ. Awful idea.
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@Kirwan said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Lol, the rose tinted glasses on players like Mounga and even worse Frizzell. We don't need them, they can have their payday.
If Dmac is going overseas because Razor is luring Mounga back that is criminal.
As for picking overseas players, that would kill the game in NZ. Awful idea.
This talk is starting because we are in a down period. I agree, don't look backwards look forwards. Find and develop the next group of young ABs to take us through the next 4 years and the talk should quiet down. The only way I would be happy with letting players leave and still play is some form of 50 test dispensation
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@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster Smith is still good enough I'd bet to bring off the bench to close out a game.
Over the next 12-18 months, he could pass on his experience and mentor the new long term 9s. Same goes for Retallick.
TKB is still plenty good enough for the ABs. Frizell too (unless he has had the mother of all drop offs).
Let the man retire at the age of 35!
TKB was barely good enough when he was in the ABs 10 years.
I can't work out which is the stupidest comment, this one, or @stodders one about Frizell.
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i cant believe how often im seeing suggestions of bring frizell back....i was once the biggest frizell apologist (as far as rugby) and coped a lot of flak...and even i have long ago realised he just didnt step up in his many chances in the black jersey.....
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I dont think it's players leaving that's hurting NZ rugby at the top flight as the vast majority of the best players are still playing in NZ. You could argue Mounga and Frizzel and you could also argue that they wouldn't make much of a difference to the current team anyway.
What I really think is hurting NZ rugby is the loss of coaching IP, Joseph, Brown, Renee, Schmidt and a whole pile of others, whilst our systems are set up to retain our playing talent there seems little set up to retain our coaching talent.
Longer term maybe we have to and again in my mind it would be due to the IP gain we could get instead of being NZ isolated. Players experiencing different coach's, training methods, ways of playing and bringing that back to NZ so we can pick up the best of it and review how we operate maybe the biggest gain.
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It would be interesting to know what the gap is in coaching salaries for Super vs elsewhere: limited number of spots available, so making them better paid might actually be an option.
I'm on board with preferring to have a couple of Tony Brown, Dave Rennie, Joseph, Schmidt, Cotter in NZ rather than Mo'unga and Frizzell.
